Many of us can relate to having romantic relationships that went wrong for one reason or another, and we often find ourselves at a loss as to why the breakup happened. Today’s guest, Jason Green, from @relationshipattachments on TikTok and the creator of the Greener Vegan News podcast, tells the story of how a recent breakup he had gone through got him introduced to the concept of attachment styles, which, he claims, explained most of their issues as a couple. Jason engages in a light yet informative conversation with hosts, Jason Wrobel and Whitney Lauritsen, as they each undergo a process of introspection on their experiences in dating and relationships in the light of attachment theory. Listen as they give amazing insights on how our personalities and childhood histories influence the way we carry ourselves into the dating world.
Listen to the podcast here:
Attachment Styles And The World Of Dating With Jason Green
That’s Italian for the face.
It’s interesting because the skin is called the fascia. Is it the muscle?
It is the fibrous covering over the muscle.
In Italian, it is faccia, your face.
I was thinking of matcha when he said that.
That would be great to have a matcha place called Matcha Faccia or Matcha Face. “Let’s go and drink at Matcha Face.”
That is a good name.
What if there was an Italian café with matcha infused? I’m coming up with all kinds of good ideas.
You trademark that real quick.
Matcha Faccia TM.
We’ll have to get some matcha after this.
I will hardcore go for some matcha.
Especially because Jason Green and I are going to be going to a podcast party.
You’re all going to need the energy, especially you, Jason, because you just flew in. Are your arms tired?
I have a little jet lag.
I feel like we should turn it over to you because you’ve got the note cards. You have been preparing for this episode for a while.
Before we go to Jason’s note cards, may I sidetrack on a beautiful tangent? We always love to sidetrack on beautiful tangents, Jason. Since we’re talking about matcha, how do you feel about caffeine in general? Are you a coffee drinker? Are you a matcha fan? Do you love tea? Do you mess with coffee at all?
What’s your favorite plant-based milk to put in whatever you would like to drink?
I don’t like coffee, tea or kombucha. I love the smell of coffee. I don’t dislike it but it’s not my thing.
Is it more of the flavor of those things or you don’t like how you physiologically feel after you consume them or both?
It’s more of the flavor. The first thing I ever gave up was Coca-Cola. I did that for years, other than Jack and Coke once in a while. That was the first thing I ever gave up as I went to becoming healthier. That’s the only time I did caffeine. It’s really soda.
Did you give up Cola because it was the sugar, the dyes or the company that owns it? What was your reason?
Is it the fact that it can dissolve a penny when you put it in a glass of it, maybe that reason too?
It’s a little of everything. Probably, I had a little bit of spare tire. In the military, I’m trying to be in good shape. It’s a little bit about being healthy.
Except for chocolates.
What about caffeine-free, sugar-free cola by a brand name Zevia, who I’m hooked on. Have you ever had that?
Anytime I’ve ever tried sugar-free or any free. It doesn’t taste the same to me.
You’re into animal-free products.
Yes, but anything sugar-free like Coke Zero. I haven’t tried that one but any diet, I didn’t like it.
Is it maybe because some of the sweeteners, the sugar alcohol they use? You see a lot of erythritol or xylitol, things like that. Is it the taste of it is too sharp because I hear that a lot. It’s bitter and sharp.
I tasted that.
I’ve gotten into Zevia. I go through phases where I’ll crave it so much. It’s nice because it’s the best of all worlds. They don’t use any dyes because it’s clear. Even the cola is clear. It is sugar-free. They use Stevia and they have caffeine-free options too.
My favorite hack though, it’s legit, is the Longevity Soda. There are a couple of good friends of mine named Len Foley and Rebecca Gauthier. They were doing The Longevity Now Conference for many years. They have a place called Longevity Coffee, which is in the suburbs of Los Angeles. They have a line of liquid droppers that mimic a lemon-lime soda, root beer, citrus, orange, and they’re infused. They’re sugar-free but they’re not bitter, acrid and weird. The colors they have, for instance, the orange soda has turmeric. The root beer is with Chaga mushroom, which is super medicinal and anti-cancer. They taste amazing. I’ll get a bottle of sparkling water. My favorite one is Topo Chico. I’ll pop it off and put a couple of droppers in and the root beer is unbelievable.
Is it sweetened with Stevia?
It is Stevia-sweetened and it’s good because I was a root beer fan growing up. In Detroit, where I grew up, we had A&W and we had Coney Island. Every time I’d go, I was a root beer float freak.
Why do you want to know the answer to this question?
We were riffing on matcha and I knew he had jet lag. I wanted to dig into Jason’s relationship.
What do you do if you don’t consume caffeine? I think people that don’t consume caffeine are amazing. I’m somebody that I don’t like caffeine per se. I like the flavor. I’m the opposite of you, Jason, where I love the way coffee tastes. I love the experience of coffee. I love the experience of tea and sodas. It’s all about the flavors and the texture sometimes, but caffeine, I could take it or leave it.
I like to experience also coffee and go into a coffee house. I like the smell of it. I like everything about it, but not to taste. Since we’re coming clean, too, I also don’t like beer, but I go to breweries. Not all the time, but I’ll go with somebody. It’s not a big deal.
Wine is okay.
I like hard liquor. I like whiskey.
I was going to say, “This man has to have a vice.”
Since I am retired from the military, there are other things I can do now too.
There are a lot of different options. When you are low in energy though, because a lot of people turn to the coffee or tea. You do like matcha?
I don’t know if I’ve even had matcha, to tell you the truth. I’ve seen it everywhere, but I don’t think I’ve had it.
Would you try it with us if we were, “Let’s go and get some good matcha?”
Yes, I can try it. I have no problem trying it.
I’m going to vote because my favorite matcha on this side of town is Maru Coffee over in Los Feliz. Their matcha is a straight-up ceremonial grade from Japan. I’m a stickler about quality with most things.
Will it be funny if we cut the episode and then suddenly, we are in Maru Coffee doing the episode?
Then there’s the background noise, the foamer in the background.
No pressure, but if you do want to go on that adventure, there’s that.
I feel like I want to force Jason like, “Would you like your first matcha experience?” It’d be like, “I want to take your matcha virginity.”
The thing with matcha is it’s a very distinct flavor. It depends on which kind of matcha because there are two versions of matcha. I think the ceremonial one is more commonly used, especially in coffee shops because it’s sweeter. Like a lot of things, it depends on what type you’re having and what brand and who’s preparing it. Going back to the sub-question, do you have a favorite plant-based milk? Do you like plant-based milk or is that another thing you are not into?
Mix it with hard liquor.
I’m neutral on the milks. I like them all.
Do you have them in cereal? What would you put it in if you don’t drink these types of drinks?
Oatmeal, that’s where I have my almond milk usually.
Do you like oat milk?
I do. It’s just that almond milk seems to be more available and cheaper. I go with that because I am not picky, plus I have four kids so I’m used to always getting the deal.
This is a good segue because Jason Green and I met through TikTok. Something I’ve seen a lot on TikTok is people making their oat milks. Have you seen that too?
It’s funny how TikTok gets to know what you like and then it keeps showing you similar content. I’ve seen at least three videos of people saying, “Why would you spend all this money on oat milk when you can make it yourself?” People are demoing how to make oat milk on their TikTok videos. I haven’t done it yet. I don’t drink that much oat milk. It’s like a treat for me because it’s high in carbohydrates. I want to try and see if it tastes the same. Let’s go to TikTok. How long have we been to TikTok? I think you reached out to me after I did that Just Egg video that went viral. There are different levels of virality on TikTok. I think it’s got 712,000 views. That’s high, but it’s common to see people getting views in the millions on TikTok. How long have you been there? Why did you get on TikTok?
I got on there right before you, I think.
I got on there in October 2019.
It was September when I got on there because I was trying a course. I knew I was going to do the podcast. I was like, “Let me try this TikTok thing.” Gary Vee is the reason I got on there. He keeps talking about this like a broken record. I did the Just Egg Omelet. I was like, “Let me go on YouTube and study the algorithm and figure out how to get this to be good.” The first video I did was Beyond Sausage. I had 2,000 views and I had eight followers.
That’s a huge ratio.
That’s why TikTok at least at this time is such a cool opportunity because anybody can get high amounts of views easily.
I did the Just Egg Omelet and I ended up with 130,000 views. I was like, “This is amazing.” I had twenty followers at that time. I started seeing my followers jump up and I started Instagram. I had an old Instagram account that I got rid of, but I started both at the same time to compare and TikTok is going faster. I was like, “Let me try this.” I was dominating the Just Egg category.
You’ve done a lot of Just Egg videos.
It is because I get at least 1,000 views every time. All of a sudden, this Egg comes up and I was like, “Who is this person? This person’s blowing up.” I was like, “Someone’s taken over the throne. I’ll be second.”
I didn’t even mean to. Similar to you, I got into TikTok because of Gary Vaynerchuk. I was trying to decide what to do. One day, I thought, “I had a brand-new bottle of Just Egg.” I don’t think I’d ever bought it before. I tried it out at restaurants. That was my first time buying it. I also had that brand new Scanpan and the combination of people’s interest in Just Egg and the fact that nonstick pan is impressive that it was like a fifteen-second video with no music. I don’t know if I use any relevant hashtags. I might have used #Vegan or something, but it was a fluke. I thought that was interesting about TikTok because sometimes, you’re very intentional about your success and it works out the way that you want it to. Sometimes you do something that simple and it makes a huge difference. I will say I still have not reached 1,000 followers on there. I thought I would’ve gotten there a lot faster.
What I’ve learned with mine because I might have hit 500 but because of that one video, I got not leftovers, but it kept jumping up, then they’d bring it back in. All of a sudden, people are looking at my Just Egg thing and you get that residual.
It’s true because I put on that video in October or November and I still get views and hearts on it almost every single day.
When I look at the #Vegan, a lot of times, that’s the first one.
My videos? That’s interesting.
We’re dominating the vegan world in TikTok. That’s the only area we’re dominating.
Jason keeps saying that he’s going to do it. He’s got the abilities to have five cute animals and he sings. That’s the powerhouse for TikTok. All you have to do is do more dancing and he does good dances as well. TikTok is a fascinating place. I loved watching it. I talked about this. I had a big reality check when I looked at my screen time usage on my iPhone and realized I was spending an average of an hour a day on TikTok. I was like, “I can’t do this. This is not good for my mental health or productivity.” I’m interested in it. It’s great entertainment but I want to spend less time on TikTok consuming.
It’s addicting, for sure. I know all of us, but not teenagers have got on there. Teenagers don’t like that, but you go in there as a joke and then the next thing you know you’re addicted. I’m talking to my son about Charli and Lil Huddy. I was like, “Why am I having these conversations?” These people who don’t go to TikTok don’t know about, but Charli has been in a Super Bowl Commercial. In a matter of four months, she had 24 million followers. It’s crazy.Attachment theory explained 95% of our issues as a couple. Click To Tweet
She is over 25 million the last I checked.
Every day, she’s like, “Thanks for the next million.”
It’s like a million followers a week or something like that.
She just did one dance.
I get sucked into, “Are they dating or not?” It is fascinating. Like, “Are they really dating? Are they pretending to be dating? What’s going on with them?”
Sadly, I wonder that too. I’m like, “Why am I worried about that?”
Do you know who I like on there and I wish that I knew her name? It is on the top of my head, maybe you do.
Is she in Japan?
No, she’s somebody I found out because of Charli. This was one of the reasons I became very grateful for Charli and saw a side of her that resonated with me. It’s easy to judge Charli. She’s this cute fifteen-year-old girl. All she does is dance and she gets 25 million followers and Super Bowl Commercials. Especially as an adult, it’s easy to be like, “How did she get it easy? She doesn’t deserve this,” and get into that judgment space. The opportunity that I had to have a lot of gratefulness and compassion for her was when she shouted out the woman that inspired her, which is a woman in her 30s who does body positivity dancing.
I didn’t see that.
I should pull it up because I want to give her a shout-out.
You don’t have to follow her because you’re going to see her. She’s everywhere.
I don’t think I’m following her either. I feel like her account is called Make Health A Priority. I’m almost positive that’s what it is.
That’s Paige’s Make Health A Priority. Shout-out to Paige Snyder.
Speaking of that, I said the girl in Japan because you mentioned it in TikTok, one of her episodes about the one who’s there teaching about Japan. I think it’s called @Her.Atlas.
I like her too. I do follow her.
She posted it because she’s had 200,000 followers in a couple of months. She posted like, “Am I famous? Am I popular? I’ve got to tell my husband, maybe I should quit my job.” She’s like, “How do I know if I’m popular?” I messaged her like, “I heard you on a podcast, so that’s how I know you’re popular.” She was like, “Which podcast?” I went back and I found out it was Paige’s podcast. It’s an interesting world.
I’m going through Charli who makes so many videos, it’s impossible to even find it. What is her name?
That’s consistency there.
Doing her Renegade dance.
It’s going to play as I need to know the answer to this so that I can shout her out.
That’s the key though. In any of these platforms, you get rewarded in the algorithm for being more consistent, no matter what it is. Therein lies the challenge and the reward is the pressure to be consistent if you want to build a brand or you have something that’s gaining momentum, even though some days you may not want to do it. The biggest challenge is maintaining your physical and mental health amidst a culture that’s constantly getting you to do more and more.
I found it. Her account is @Move_With_Joy. You could see how I was like, “Make Health A Priority.” It starts with an M and it’s three words. I don’t know her first name, but she has a great account because it’s mostly about body positivity. I think she’s in her 30s. She’s a mom and she teaches people how to dance. I think the story is that Charli did a duet or she saw one of Move With Joy’s videos or maybe her name is Joy. That would make sense. She saw one of Joy’s videos and that’s part of how she got her start on TikTok. She did a shout-out to Joy and then Joy shouts out to her and her followers. She is one of those people that you want to be friends with. Joy is somebody that I would love to meet. She does not seem in her ego. Even when she got all this popularity, she stayed the same and she’s making her videos, and it’s cool to see.
With Charli, there are a lot of girls, unfortunately, they’re on there that are showing way too much, especially as a teenager. Charli’s seems pretty wholesome as a kid. When she blew up, she was not dressed provocatively. She’s doing her Renegade Dance.
She’s a cute fifteen-year-old and anytime you see her parents post videos about her, you can see that she still has that innocence of a fifteen-year-old, which is sweet, too, because it can get to your head. I’m sure that’s so much to deal with mentally, what success does to you when it happens fast or when you’re young, which both things happened to her at the same time. I’m sure it’s got to be tough.
The interesting thing and to segue into, I suppose some conversations maybe you have with your kids. In 2017-ish, I remember reading an article online that there were some statistics in a study about surveying school kids, teenagers, middle school, and high school kids about what they wanted to be when they grew up. This was US students and the number one answer that came back was famous, not a firefighter, not a teacher, not a doctor. The number one answer was, “I want to be famous.” It’s this interesting time we live in where you have a fifteen-year-old who is about body positivity dancing, whatever. We have a gazillion examples from YouTube and Instagram at all, a million that we could bring up. People are getting famous for a variety of things. The fact that you have a survey that goes out to American school kids, and the number one answer was, “I want to be famous,” it begs the question of, “Is this a healthy thing for people to be shooting for? What are the mental and emotional implications of having this become a part of our culture where kids are like, “I want to be famous, that’s the number one thing I want to do?” As a dad, how do you handle that and does that come up with your kids at all?
It’s funny you say that because my youngest who is sixteen, he knows he wants to be in the entertainment industry, but I thought he meant behind the camera. All of a sudden, he wants to be in front of the camera and he’s never thought about acting class or anything like that. He’s never done plays or anything like that. He doesn’t know what he wants to do. All of a sudden, he wants to be in front of the camera. My youngest daughter took an acting class and stuff like that but eventually, she didn’t want to do it. It came out of nowhere and he’s a pretty anxious and shy kid. I don’t know where it’s coming from, but he sees all that stuff and there’s money involved too. Everyone sees that money, I’m sure.
Part of it is we’re in such an interesting time that the three of us have experienced a lot where you can be your own boss, you can work from home, and you can have all this freedom. That’s been a big thing that all human beings have wanted. It wasn’t as readily available as it is now. As a teenager, they’re thinking, “I don’t have to work a 40-hour job that I hate to pay the bills. I could stay home and do fun things like dance on TikTok and get brand deals and get opportunities like Charli is getting.” That is like the dream to be able to pave your path and do the things that you love and be creative and all of that, but I think that there is going to be a big shift because we’ve had this ten-year period of the promotion. Anybody can work for themselves and then suddenly, there’s a shift where a lot of people are working for themselves. As a society, we have to start to shift what that means for us.
It made things complicated in a new way. I wonder if some people like your children think that it’s easy and then they’re not prepared for it? Because of our school systems, I don’t think I have fully shifted to encourage that. The school systems have to prepare kids for these careers. I don’t know how many colleges are teaching kids how to be internet famous or are kids even going to college? A lot of teenagers like Charli, might be thinking, “What’s the point of going to college if I already have a career and I’m already making money? Do I need to do that? Do we need to have that experience if I have friends and if I’m happy?” When I went to college, I was studying film production. That was part of the path that I thought I had to follow. I had to go to school and get a degree. I had to study, learn, practice, network, and all those things that I don’t think I would have even known how to do without college. Nowadays, if you can go online and make videos from your bedroom and make money from it, that’s going to change a lot of the way that people operate in this world for better and for worse.
I have two college degrees but I hardly ever use it. It’s something I got, honestly. I’ve told my kids, “You don’t have to have a college degree, as long as you’re happy and you do something.” My youngest was like, “I don’t know what I’d want to do with my life.” I’m like, “I don’t know what I want to do with my life either.”
Is that your response to him? That’s amazing and real.
I was like, “Luckily, I had a military career.” While I figure it out, I get a retirement check. It works out plus I had kids so that was my focus. He has three older siblings and he can see their struggles. The oldest two have gone to college and dropped out. That’s the way it is and that’s life. It doesn’t mean you can’t go back ten years later, but they’re being good.
I want to talk about this because your response was real, open, and authentic to him of like, “I’m still figuring it out too.” As a father, you’re in the mid-40s. Whitney and I, on this show, we love to examine cultural narratives, stereotypes, and imprinting that sometimes subconsciously we’re not aware are running us. Part of this is all about decoding our minds and our belief systems. There’s a massive cultural narrative that we’re supposed to have “figured” it all out by a certain age. Certainly, as we go on, there’s a significant, “What do you mean you’re going to change careers? What do you mean you’re going to stop doing this thing that we’ve known you for?” There’s a lot of pressure and expectation around that in our society of you’ve somehow had to have it all figured out by a certain age. First of all, I commend you for giving your son such an honest answer. I’m curious if you do feel a certain level of pressure as you go into this new phase of what you’re doing. Is there any of that cultural imprinting or narrative that you’re having to undo or do you feel free about it all, for your life and the changes you’re making?
It’s funny because when you’re growing up, you have a certain thing that you think you want to be. I want to be an architect.
Is that what you thought you were going to be?
I thought I was going to be an architect, then the next thing you know, I was a nurse in the Army. I was like, “How did that happen?” It wasn’t my plan. It just happened. It was to get a degree so I could go to college for other stuff, to get decent pay. That was my plan. Now, I’m on social media and that didn’t even exist back then. I’ve gone on a journey and then becoming a vegan has changed my ways and my thoughts a lot too. People wouldn’t recognize me from when I was twenty. They’d be like, “What? That wouldn’t make sense.”
Was it personality-wise?
Not personality but the whole vegan thing, more of an eco-friendly type of person. I was a typical Army guy, barbecueing, cussing, and drinking. That’s pretty much military life. You evolve. I feel like I’m still evolving. For instance, I was set on when I retired, coming back to Tucson, raising the kids, then they go off, and I find somebody else. I was like, “I want to travel the world and live in hostels and stuff like that.” It came from an ex-girlfriend that got me that route. Originally, I was going to be living in Costa Rica. That was the plan. That plan has changed now. I was like, “What am I going to do?” In the summer, I’m going to go to Europe for a couple of months.
It’s beautiful that you’re leaning into the unknown in a massive way and not succumbing to any of those external pressures of, “You ought to be doing this. You ought to be focusing on this.” You’re like, “Plans changed.” You’re adaptable and it sounds like you’re going where your heart leads you, which is a great skill to pass along to your kids. No matter what they choose, and even if those choices change, which if they’re evolving beings, those choices are going to change. I bring this up because I have a weird script in my mind that I’m backing slowly away from my career being known as a chef. It’s a little bit harder because there’s an association of the social media component if you branded yourself a certain way and how do you pivot and expand from that brand. For Whitney and I, we’re both in this period of a massive change in evolution for both of us on a personal and professional level. This show was one of those things. We don’t want just to talk about food and eco-friendly living all the time. We want to blow this out and talk about relationships, life, subconscious belief systems, mental health and emotional wellness.As an avoidant, it doesn’t matter if the person’s doing everything right for you; you’re going to find something wrong with that person. Click To Tweet
It takes time for people to catch on because they’re still anchored in this idea. Maybe, people who knew you when you were a teenager or twenties, they have this concept of who you were but they’re not yet caught up to the evolution of who you are in the moment. It takes reinforcing that with people and training them to you like, “I’m a new person and I’m changing all the time. Who I was a week ago or a month ago is not who I am now.” Maybe people get caught because if they have an idea, we were talking about this with our friend, Quist. He’s in the music industry and people wanting to pigeonhole you or label you or put a box around you. If I understand it and can label this or have a framework, then I don’t feel challenged or intimidated by it if I have a name for it. Sometimes, that freaks people out if they can’t readily go, “I know who you are.” If they can’t figure you out, it scares and threatens certain people.
I’m in the military for twenty years. That was a big chapter in my life. This is the first time in social media that I’ve said I’m military. I hide that. I’m proud of it but I don’t want it to define me. That’s a big chapter in my life but at the same time, I don’t want to lead with that because now I’m evolving to something different. It’s not that I didn’t enjoy that time. I don’t want to lead with that. I also don’t want to sit there and share stories like Iraq or Afghanistan stories. I’m okay sharing that stuff, but that’s not the main conversation I want to have. I want to know about the other parts of the person.
Speaking of which, that’s a good segue into the topic that you’re excited to share, which is attachment style.
We might hear it as an Attachment Theory. Do you want me to give a background of what it is?
I do and I want you to begin with why this is something that you’re passionate about. You mentioned the book to me through TikTok message and then I went and read the book. I haven’t finished it yet. It is called Attached.
I have it here. It travels with me.
It is one of those books that’s almost, if not equally important as The 5 Love Languages in terms of understanding a relationship dynamics. I’m very interested in psychology and personal dynamics and so this book appealed to me. Also, understanding who I am in relation to other people and who they are in relation to me. This book was insightful. Thanks to you. I ended up reading that and this was something that you wanted to talk about, so I’m excited.
It becomes my favorite book.
How did you find this book?
My story is I was going to Costa Rica. I had a girlfriend once the last kid was done with high school. We were going to move to Costa Rica. Through the relationship, we decided to go to therapy. We ended up going to individual therapy and then we’re going to come together. She went to one therapy and that’s the day the relationship ended, unfortunately. The next week was my therapy and I was like, “Should I go to this therapy because she’s not in my life anymore?” I was thinking, “I’m going to go to it because anybody can benefit from therapy.” I went there and I described the situation.
He mentioned one of the attachments in there and I won’t say what it is for her. I was like, “What is that?” He gave me a quick description. I went home and I looked it up. I was like, “This is 95% of our issues.” I was shocked and I was like, “This person knows her.” In the beginning, I focused on what her issues were. I didn’t focus on mine, but I’ve been going to therapy. Eventually, we get to my stuff. I’ll explain a little bit, but you’re not just one type. You’re a spectrum of things. I hate reading, which is funny because I do a podcast where I have to read and do the news. I got this book and another book once it led me to what her style was or her attachment.
What is the name of the other book?
I can’t remember the name of it, but it was very specific to that attachment.
It’s not the same author. It is somebody else talking about the same topic.
That’s correct. The other book, he has a lot of books on this subject.
I don’t think that Jason Wrobel knows much about this book. For him and the readers who are unfamiliar, will you give a summary, Jason Green?
I’ll give you a history of this. It started back in the ‘50s with a psychiatrist and he was John Bowlby. He was looking at children. He had this theory that the longer you’re with your caretaker, the better off your life’s going to be. He looked at a lot of orphan kids and foster kids. It can be a lot more challenging if that’s what you’re used to. He did that and then he had a colleague named Mary Ainsworth in the ‘70s or ‘80s. She had what they call a strange situation test. She took it a little further and she would take 12 to 18-month-old kids with their caretaker. It was usually their mother and they would put them in a room with toys and let the kids play with toys then mom would leave. They’re going to react to it in a certain way and that created the three categories. They would come in, the mom would leave twice and then also a stranger would come in.
The normal baby response is they are going to freak out a little bit, mom is gone. If they cried, the mom comes back in and the mom hushes them pretty quick. They’re good again and they get back to playing with their toys. That was known as a secure attachment. If the baby was crying and it took a lot longer for the baby to react, they do what they call protest behavior like, “I’m going to kick and scream at mom because she left me.” That was known as the preoccupied anxious. There was a third one which is avoidant. They don’t care if their mom is there or if mom leaves. They don’t care if mom left, if mom comes back, they care less.
Why are you laughing, Jason?
Did I just identify you?
I want you to keep going, but my reaction to the avoidant was visceral when you described it. I’m like, “I can make myself a sandwich whether you are here or not.” I need to jump in quickly because I want you to keep going, but this has come up a lot in my romantic engagements in the past. I’ve been analyzing this for maybe 3 to 4 years. I’ve noticed that I’m like, “We’re together or not, it doesn’t matter to me. I’m going to have a great life.” Part of it has been a compensation method of my growth of having unhealthy attachments like being devastated when a person would leave. Maybe as rewiring or a coping mechanism or something, I feel like the needle has swung. To a degree, this might sound callous. I find myself showing up in romantic relationships of like, “If you’re here or not, I’m good.”
That sounds like avoidant. I was going to guess anxious, but I’m only going off of what I’ve heard on the show and him talking about his father.
When I was reading the book, I was like, “Jason is a 100% avoidant.” That’s also partially because Jason and I used to date. I don’t know if you knew this. We dated years ago and it’s most common for an anxious or someone that’s at least borderline anxious to be attracted to avoidant men. When I was evaluating myself, my relationships, most of the men I’ve been with have fallen to the avoidant category. That was another clue to me. Maybe, Jason, you’ve been avoidant your whole life but it’s manifested in a different way. Perhaps our resident expert, Jason Green, can enlighten us.
Please continue, Jason.
The fourth category is called disorganized. I don’t want to touch on that too much, but disorganized is someone who has sexual trauma. They had a bad trauma. They get weird when mom comes back. It’s a small population. Those people should go to therapy but I want to get that one out there. As a child, this is how you’re being affected by your caretaker. It doesn’t matter which one, your mom, dad, grandma or whatever. Everybody’s going to influence you, but mom or dad is going to influence you more. What happens as a kid, some of the studies showed what you categorized as a baby, 70% of those people are going to be the same. What could change is maybe there’s some trauma or you’ve run around with a lot of good people when you were younger. Zero to three years is the most influential time, but everything affects your life. As you said, maybe because your father’s relationship might have created a certain thing over time. I’ve seen that from people I’ve dated and friends. It seems to be dads mostly. There are a lot more dads out there that aren’t doing what they should be doing. There’s an episode you had about some break in the chain or some book you’re reading about breaking the chain of your mom was this way and you’re this way.
It came up in Paige’s episode where we were talking about generational imprinting and generational trauma.
It’s called It Didn’t Start With You.
I thought about that. For instance, his father has children and he’s got that imprint somewhat of that person.
Jason, when does your dad leave? That was a pivotal point in your life. How old were you?
I was younger than five. I can’t exactly pinpoint precisely what age, but it was between the ages of 3 and 5 where my mom and dad’s relationship dissolved.
Between the ages of 0 and 3, there were things going on with your dad before he left that were causing this avoidant attachment style.
I’m sure that there was. Part of it too, if I’m examining this in real-time, my mom, as a result of being a single mom, worked 3 and 4 jobs at a time. As a result, I was raised by my mother primarily and also by aunts, uncles, cousins, grandma and grandpa. Part of this development stage of my childhood was realizing that, “Even if I don’t get love and protection from mom, I got it from grandma, grandpa, auntie and uncle.” I was getting passed around the whole family in Detroit because mom had to work 3 and 4 jobs to make ends meet. As a romantically involved adult, maybe part of that is coming back now of, “If I’m with a significant other and this woman won’t give me the love that I desire, that’s cool. This one over here will and that one over there will. I don’t need you.”
Why did you respond so much when he talked about the kicking and screaming with mom?
It was the avoidance thing where mom comes back in the room and I’m sitting here, “I am cool. I’m going to keep doing what I’m doing.” I think is an overcompensation for a way that I emotionally handled the deep wound of the abandonment I felt from my father leaving. “Is it cool? I don’t need you. Bye.” Which maybe was a way for my young brain to compartmentalize that and not be destroyed by that. As a child, I don’t remember feeling devastated by him leaving per se. As I’ve gone to therapy, I’ve done psychedelics, and I’ve worked with an innumerable number of different modalities for healing, it’s made clear to me that I did feel abandoned but I compartmentalized it mentally in a way so that I could keep going. I almost, in a way, needed to be strong for my mom. In my small child’s brain, I was like, “You need to step up and make sure she’s okay.” All of that compartmentalization came back as an adult man to be looked at and dealt with. The coping mechanism of, “Whether you’re here or you’re not, I’m good, cool.” I don’t want to say this plagues me, but it’s very much in play in my romantic relationships. “I’ll take you or leave you, it’s cool.”People don’t generally match up with people of the same attachment style. Click To Tweet
As far as avoidant, they tend to repress emotions. It’s good that you go on to therapy because most avoidant won’t. They’re the last to know that this is happening. Their friends and family know that’s happened. They may look at it as like, “He hasn’t found the one,” or something like that, instead of it’s like you’re repeating those patterns and it takes someone to point it out to like, “This is what I think is happening.” You’ll repress a lot of your childhood or you’ll make it more positive than it was. You’re pretty open from what I’ve listened to, but a lot of avoidants will talk about like, “I drive around with my dad. I have some good experiences.” If they get to a therapist, they’ll find out that even dads were there, that doesn’t mean they’re there. They’re just filling the role. I know somebody who’s dad had six kids with three women and he abandoned five of the six. The fifth and sixth kid, they got that dad for most of their childhood, but he wasn’t there. He’s not a nice person and it’s affecting those people. Everyone’s going to be affected differently, all those six kids, but it’s going to affect you whether they’re there or not. It’s what is their attachment style is going to affect you.
This is fascinating because I’ve said this to friends that I feel okay on my own, that I get worried sometimes that I’m so used to being on my own now. I’m self-sufficient emotionally because of that childhood overcompensation. Also, the reality that I’ve been through some heartbreak ups, painful visceral breakups. On the other side of it, I’ve come to the realization that it was painful and I’m okay. It’s almost this acknowledgment of the reality that whether I’m with someone or not, I’m okay. The worry that I have some time is being self-sufficient and so in that avoidant like, “I’m good either way. I’ll take you or leave you.” Maybe I’m not open to partnership in a certain way, but I haven’t decoded that fully. It’s a worry because I’m so used to my daily routine in my house. The way I have things set up and my routines. It’s like, “How is someone going to slot into this?” I’m almost so set in the ways of my daily life and how I’ve set up my life that I’m like, “I don’t know how I’m going to fit someone in.” It is a genuine concern.
With avoidants, they have these boundaries. My therapist explained it like paper boundaries. They are easy to break and it doesn’t take much. You’ll start looking for things that are going to irritate you. It could be like she eats so fast or her spoon hits the bowl that many times. I think I’m hitting the spot. They tend to self-sabotage is what avoidants do. They will find things like, “This was wrong.” It doesn’t matter if you have a girlfriend and she’s doing everything right for you, you’re going to find something wrong with that person. Especially if they live with you, you’re going to feel like you’re smothered, even if you invited them in because your routines messed up. It doesn’t take much, honestly, like she washes her hands a certain way and there’s water on the counter. It could be a life-altering decision for you.
Why is it making you laugh so hard?
This is spot on. I joke sometimes that I have Seinfeldian dating tendencies. If anyone remembers the Man Hands episode of Seinfeld and how Jerry Seinfeld on the show had all of these very specific hang-ups and proclivities about people he would date. I often say that I have Seinfeldian dating tendencies because I’m like, “Did you see that shade in her nail polish? Who would wear fuchsia with that dress? Are you kidding?” I’ll catch myself and I’ll be like, “You are Jerry Seinfeld. What is wrong with you?” As you’re saying that, I’m laughing because I joke and I’m self-deprecating about my Seinfeldian dating tendencies.
My therapist mentioned Seinfeld when I was talking to him about this stuff. He’s mentioned Man Hands too. That’s funny, but it’s the greatest show ever. I will say too for everybody else, you’re probably avoidant, we’re figuring that out. There’s a spectrum too. He’s probably avoidant but he’s not all the way. There are some anxious, some secure, so just people know. It’s not one or the other. One thing I learned is I’m middle of the road secure. Secure is the best one to have. That’s why it’s called secure, but I have a little bit anxious too. If I’m with an avoidant, my anxiety will go up. All of a sudden, I’ll be a different person. I won’t know what’s going on. All of a sudden, I’m worrying about every little thing that I shouldn’t worry about. If I find a secure person, everything will be chill and be great. Anxious might make you go a little bit in your spectrum, but it’s the avoidant that’s going to make you turn into a different person sometimes. When you come out of a relationship, you’re going to be like, “What happened there? What happened to me?”
It’s interesting because, in the book, they talk about how you generally don’t match up with your same type. Avoidants do not often end up with avoidants but I think at least one person, you might know who I’m talking about, Jason. You have dated an avoidant person and I feel like, “Don’t you think if we’re thinking about the same person?” That’s interesting like, how does that happen?
Was it quick though? Was it short?
We didn’t see each other that much. I can tell you that in the sense of we physically did not spend that much time together or communicating. I felt like there was no intimacy or vulnerability or depth being created as a result of that. That’s ultimately why we broke off.
It’s almost like you held on for a while. Maybe you felt more comfortable dating someone that was avoidant because you didn’t have to deal with it versus in one of your experiences with somebody that got similar to what Jason Green was saying. Your avoidant tendencies triggered this person anxiousness. Their anxiousness triggered you to be even more avoidant.
The paper turned it into papier-mâché, turned into wood, turned into concrete. I’m like, “Sorry, no entry. Gate code’s changed. I got the Bella at the door guarding it.”
I will say with avoidants, there’s one study in that book that has 200 couples where they couldn’t find one avoidant couple. I feel like the avoidant couples are usually friends with benefits or a long-distance thing or like a one-night-stand. It’s where that comes in because they’re doing their own thing. One thing with avoidants is they tend to be vulnerable. Even in sex, it’s more of having that fun, but the intimacy gets pushed back and it creates that wall so you can escape. As an anxious person, you’ll probably notice that you’re like, “Sex might be great,” but then you’re like, “I want to cuddle.” “Sorry, I’ve got to go. I got to do a podcast.” Avoidants are very open about sex, too, so they are the ones that tend to have more sexual partners and stuff like that. They don’t have that wall up to about it, but it’s more taking care of their needs and not intimacy.
This book is interesting, too, because when I realized that I fall at least a bit on the anxious spectrum, similar to you, Jason Green. Right now, in my life and my relationship, I feel secure because the man that I’m with falls more on the secure spectrum than the avoidant. As I’ve been reading the book and all that, I keep contemplating because I haven’t quite nailed them down. I think I had him do the quiz and I don’t think he was avoidant. To me, my anxiousness is not being triggered, as you were saying. That was helpful for me to see that and see how much I’ve grown or the reasons that might trigger those emotions. It also is helpful for me because it helps me feel less. A common anxious tendency is to feel like you’re always doing something wrong and that you feel like you’re to blame for things not going right. You do have all this anxiety like, “I need to change. I need to get better to have this person’s love and approval,” which is absolutely me. I have this fear and I see that you, Jason Green, based on some things we discussed where it sits with you and you’re like, “What did I do wrong? How can I fix it? How can I get this person to like me or love me?”
Reading the book, I am realizing that I have attracted or been attracted to avoidant personality types. It’s not necessarily my fault, it’s that that’s the natural tendency of somebody with my attachment style to be attracted to that person. I never recognized that until I read the book. Once I understood more about the avoidant attachment types, I felt like I could feel less anxiety about the past and feel like, “If only I had done this, then maybe things would have been different.” I don’t know if that’s true because if you’re with an avoidant type, that’s who they are. You can’t necessarily change them unless they’re willing to meet you in the middle and work on it together to become more secure. Would that be accurate?
Yes, the anxious-avoidant trap is common. I know because I have a decent amount of anxious and I’ve dated two avoidants. You know it’s bad for you, but you get drawn to it, and then you go away and you are drawn to it. I had one. It was a long-distance relationship. I can talk about her because I don’t even know where she is. I learned over the phone that she had some histories and stuff that are maybe red flags, but I didn’t look at that. When I finally got to her, I cut my time with my family and my kids to meet her and she couldn’t have been more opposite when I met her.
It was like, “What is this?” She was mean. I could not find a flight out of there quick enough. I was like, “What happened? What did I do?” I found out through a mutual friend who set me up six months later that it was because I didn’t speak to her for two straight days on the phone when I was with my kids. I’d text her or whatever, but that was all it took. All of a sudden, I’m the worst person in the world. She then moved to the same city as me six months later. Sure enough, I talked to her again and nothing ever happened. We didn’t even get to date, because all of a sudden, her avoidant ways boomed. She disappeared again. It’s funny but you’ll be like, “Why am I attracted to that?”
The book says that if you have had this pattern, it’s hard to feel attracted to somebody who is secure because they’re secure that you often don’t feel that spark that we associate with love. I thought that was interesting too is that we get into these bad habits. It’s that cliché where women are attracted to the bad boys. They think that that feeling of excitement and thrill and not knowing what’s going to happen and whatever else is what love feels like versus retraining yourself to be attracted to somebody who’s very stable and secure. I found that an important point of the book because a lot of us end up in these ongoing cycles of the same things happening, the same results happening. We feel all this pressure to learn a lesson, but it’s also about retraining yourself and giving somebody a chance, which I’ve had to do in my relationships because I found the same thing.
The secure men that had been attracted to me, I’m often not attracted to them at first because they’re boring. They like me too much. It’s too easy or whatever it is versus the avoidant men. It’s that chase and we also often associate love and romance as part of the chase. The fun is not knowing if someone likes you or not knowing when they’re going to call, whatever. It’s all those exciting and thrilling moments, but ultimately, if you’re looking for a long-term partnership, the book is saying that being in a secure relationship, a secure dynamic is much better in the long run for you.
I’d be very curious if there were any statistics or research done on people in alternative relationship structures like polyamory, multiple partners and things like that. If those people were predominantly avoidant because as we’re describing it in terms of some of the experience of friends and acquaintances who are in polyamorously-structured relationships, it makes me reflect on, “Are those people avoidants?”
I have seen one thing about them. I can’t remember where and I don’t know if they were saying they’re more avoidant. It was just that, let’s say a polyamorous woman, she wants that alpha man that’s going to take care of her physically but she also wants that sensitive guy that’s going to give her a massage. They get the best of both worlds or at least that’s how they’re looking at it. They wouldn’t say they’re necessarily avoidant, but it did seem like they were leaning that way. They’re picking and choosing to get the complete man.
“One human can’t fulfill all of my needs and desires. If I have a bevy of humans, each with different qualities and attributes, then the hybridization of all those personalities gives me all of my needs and desires.” That also begs the question of, you see this a lot on social media memes and articles. Sometimes the expectation that we go into in relationships as humans of one person completing us or fulfilling all of our needs and desires, and a lot of the insurmountable pressure that can be put on a relationship when someone comes in with that mentality of, “You’re going to complete me. You’re going to meet all of my needs and desires.” I’m not sure if that’s a realistic or a healthy expectation to have for one another.
That’s another thing with the avoidants. They are looking for one. They think if they find the one, everything will be great. “That’s my soul mate.” Even if you find your one, you’re still going to have issues. It’s life. A lot of avoidant think there’s no work. It’s like, “Once I find that person,” and unfortunately, you might go through 30 people and you might miss a couple secures in there or somebody who’s low anxious. They have this thing that they’re looking for the one. Eventually, they’ll have somebody who treats them better probably than the rest. Those people become what they call the phantom ex. Let’s say you have one that’s a good relationship. Whenever you’re in another relationship, you’re going to start thinking, “Susan doesn’t do this where Judy did.” You’re going to start comparing the new person with the old person. The reality is the phantom ex is probably no different. It’s just that they have this because you’re not around with that person anymore.
It’s a comparison. It’s all relative.
You only remember the good stuff of Susan and you’re going to put it on this other person, “This person doesn’t open the car door for me,” or something as simple as that or “She eats too fast,” whatever. It doesn’t take much for the avoidant to be irritated. You’re talking about the development of the brain. Because you’re conditioned that way, your brain is going to light up a certain way, mine and she is going to light up. The avoidant brain is the prefrontal cortex that doesn’t regulate as much or show up as much for emotions, where an anxious is called the amygdala. They’ve shown that it’s usually larger and that’s their emotions. I don’t know if it’s part of the genetics or conditioning. Your brain lights up differently and my brain lights up, but it also will light up differently with who you’re around too. With therapy, I was comparing and I was like, “Let me look at my anxious versus the avoidant people that I’ve dated.”
One thing I did was I thought, “When I go to bed with the anxious person, you do the normal hug, kiss, and sleep.” That’s it. There’s a lot of stuff of course, but the normal day where there’s not too much fun. With the anxious person, I noticed I always had to have my hand on her when we’re sleeping. It didn’t matter where it is at like the arm, hip or whatever. I always had to have to touch. I realize that’s the only time I get a touch from her. The sex life was great, but I wasn’t getting the intimacy. I just want to touch her. A lot of times, she would come over to me and smother me in her sleep, but I appreciate it. I can’t breathe but I’m glad that she’s all over me because I didn’t realize I was missing that.
The anxious person was like, “Whatever.” Those little things make you react differently and so your spectrums with avoidant, all of a sudden, I’m the guy who was like, “Can we cuddle?” I’m like, “That wasn’t me with the anxious person.” I’d be like, “Let’s watch some TV.” You turn into a different person whatever their spectrum is, but if they’re the stronger one, it’s going to affect you. A secure person looked boring, but they also help the avoidant and the anxious comes back. I think of somebody I know who’s with a secure person and that relationship lasted longer than the normal relationship that person had but at the expense of that secure person starting to go anxious.
I haven’t finished the book yet. Does it get into things like that? How does the secure person navigate an avoidant or anxious person? I almost feel bad for them having to deal with that.
It does talk about it a little bit. You should get therapy, honestly. No matter what you’ve done in life, you should get therapy. It’s understanding them. I know with the avoidant that I had dated at one time, the most important of the two. I wish I knew this information before because I’m like, “Now I understand.” Because they’re vulnerable, once in a while, they’ll make a comment. Now I can go back and be like, “That comment seemed nothing, but I understand there are some deep wounds there that she’s got to deal with and she doesn’t know how to do it.” She knows it’s there, but I’m not going to deal with it because that’s going to cause me to deal with it and cry and all that.
You need therapy. This book helps you understand that secure because I know that I would be much better. It doesn’t mean the relationship still would’ve worked but at least now I’m like, “They’re very abrasive.” She tells me, “You suck at whatever.” I’m like, “That’s her being her avoidant ways. That’s what she learned unfortunately from her father or her mother.” It ultimately comes back to trust and vulnerability. They don’t trust their parents so why would they trust you? It doesn’t matter what you do. You’ll magnify your trust too. She could say that she doesn’t want to go out tonight because she has to work and she just was tired and went home. You look at that, “She’s lying to me. I’m done with the relationship.” She’s just tired and she doesn’t want to tell you the truth, but you’ve made it like she’s having an affair. You magnify the trust.
The other interesting thing in that book that I thought was interesting advice, but I’ve heard it before in relationship advice. It might have been specifically for anxious people to date multiple people at once so that they don’t get too attached to one person. I think this is in the anxious section.
Yes, because you get attached really quick. For me, that’s my anxious part. I want to travel but I don’t want to date because I know I’m going to fall in love and then I don’t want to leave. That’s the anxious part of me.
That is super interesting. This is awesome. I’m considering the strong possibility of leaving Los Angeles after being here for many years. Part of the thing is this desire to find someone and be in a relationship. Also, the idea that you’re maybe on the way out in the next few months looking at places and other places. Why would you get into something if you know you’re going to leave?
Jason, can you tell us about anything that you learned in the Singles Night you went to? I know you want to talk about it, but can you tell us a little bit about that experience?
My friend, Sarah on Instagram, we had this ongoing joke about doing a Singles Night. She was out at a local restaurant and texted me a picture of like, “They’re having a Singles Night. You should go.”
Was it a vegan Singles Night?
Yes, it was a vegan Singles Night.
Where was it?
At SunCafe in Studio City in California. She sent me this photo and I had known about it for a week at least. After recording episodes here at the studio for the show, I went home, fed the animals, played with them, and did the typical afternoon stuff. I was thinking about it and starting to get uncomfortable about the idea of going to a Singles Night. My body was having a visceral reaction and I thought, “Why is this having such a charge for you?” As I was sitting in it, it’s this idea of the stigma of being single that if I show up, it’s like, “Jason is here to fish for people? What’s wrong with him?”
It’s part of a larger cultural narrative that I’m decoding for myself of, “You’re in your mid-40s and you’re still single. What’s the matter with you?” Part of it is I wonder where that comes from. I think part of it is maybe a leftover from where I grew up because my mom, where she works and what she does for a profession, she jokes with me. She has people coming up to her at work and they’re like, “Why is Jason still single? Why hasn’t he found someone yet?” I’m like, “It’s cringy.” Part of that thinking got into me a little bit because as I was sitting with my discomfort, I’m like, “Why is this uncomfortable for you?”A common anxious tendency is to feel like you’re to blame when things aren’t going right. Click To Tweet
Maybe it’s because I don’t want to appear desperate. I don’t want to appear needy. I don’t want to be like, “He’s going to a singles event.” The fact that it is making me this uncomfortable means that I need to go because I’m flinging myself willfully into radically uncomfortable. My body is giving me a charge. I’m like, “I’m going to do it even more.” I went and took a motorcycle, which was a lovely ride. I walked in and I peeked my head in the door and I was like, “Crap on a shingle.” It was the vibe and I didn’t necessarily find the people to be attractive. I was like, “What am I going to do?”
I walked in the door and an acquaintance I hadn’t seen in about four years comes up behind me, puts her hands on me and she was like, “Do you know who this is?” I was like, “This is always uncomfortable.” I couldn’t see her face and she was giving me all these hints about who she was. I guessed on the first try. I was like, “That would’ve been awkward.” I saw an old musical acquaintance there and so I did end up having a good quick conversation with her and with the owner of the restaurant, but it did feel cringy.
What was the structure of it? Was it like speed dating?
It was on a patio around the fireplace. They have a great patio at the restaurant. It was mingling, happy hour.
Was it like, “Everybody here is single, so if you want to talk, you can?”
It was like that. It ended up like a cluster of people. It ended up being that there were a few stragglers. Of one, I was a straggler but then there were cliques of people. There was a group of four here and a group of five there. There was a group of girls that had this energy around them of like, “We’re having girls’ night. Do you want to approach us or not?” I was like, “Make it hard enough.” It’s awkward enough at a singles’ event and you have this little girl click that you’re like, “Try it, boys.” I was like, “No.” I ended up getting my mac and cheese, my taco, and my roasted potatoes and carving the hell out to get warm for my motorcycle ride home. I didn’t have any expectations around it, but there was a cringy element to it. I’m like, “You did it. You did something uncomfortable. You did something that your mind was like, ‘Don’t do this,’ but I did it anyway. I’ll give myself a pat on the back.” I’m not going to do that stuff again. The idea of picking up someone in a bar or restaurant or a singles event, I don’t know what it is. It felt cringy and awkward. I’m glad I did it because I was curious, but I’m not going to do it again.
Jason Wrobel and I went to a party together and I saw this cute girl and I was like, “Jason, you should talk to her,” but neither one of us knew if she was single or not. In a way, a singles mixer is cool because at least, you know everybody is single.
You have that confirmation.
Technically, I understand we have a bad experience, we don’t want to do things again, but all you have to do is walk in and decide if you want to meet anyone or not, then you can always leave. Speed dating to me, it is the ultimate awkwardness for my personality type. When I was single, I considered going to a few vegan speed dating events and I don’t think it’s my thing. Maybe it’s because I’m introverted and that type of socializing makes me uncomfortable. It’s the pressure of it. On the other hand, when you think about it, speed dating is cool because unlike the mixer you went to, you didn’t know if personality-wise you would like anybody. Maybe looking at them, you’re physically judging somebody. Speed dating is cool because at least you get to talk and you might be like, “I wouldn’t have considered this person before.”
I was going to suggest an enhancement to these types of experiences, whereas, instead of just writing one’s name on a name tag, we would put their preferred love language and their attachment style on the name tag along with it.
That would be great. I’ll give you a couple of statistics. About 50% to 60% of the population is secure and it’s 25% anxious, 20% avoidant, and then it’s 3% to 5% disorganized. You’re like, “I’ve got a 50% chance of meeting somebody,” but most of those secure people, they got locked in early and got married. They stuck with it. They may come back out of that sometimes like out of a long marriage or a death or something like that. There’s a chart in one of the books and it shows 50% secure is born, but by the time you’re 29, if you’re dating a 29-year-old, there’s only 20% left of the secures. The avoidants go from 20% to almost 50% by 29. We all have a 50/50 shot chance of dating an avoidant. That’s one thing that’s important too because if you get into those patterns, they’re everywhere.
I feel like the attributes or tendencies of avoidant become magnified and exacerbated by living in a place like Los Angeles because of the high pressure to succeed, the incredible cost of living here, which you see people hustling, grinding, and working their butt off all the time to make ends meet. By virtue of the societal pressure, the pressure to succeed and the cost of living, I meditate on this and think about it all the time. If I were in a less fast-paced, more chill place that didn’t have such a high cost of living, then maybe I could re-appropriate some of that energy to focus on a relationship. I find myself trying to focus on the relationship and being like, “I’ve got to work. I’ve got to make money. I’ve got to make ends meet.” It’s expensive to live here. I think by virtue of the entertainment culture, the hustle culture, the cost of living here, those avoidant tendencies get magnified. I’m not making excuses. I sit with and ask myself, “Can I make a relationship work here?” For all of those reasons, my natural tendency is to be avoidant but not being magnified by being in a place like LA.
Maybe you have to wait for a secure woman to get a divorce.
I’ll go to that mixer and ask, “Can I find a secure divorced vegan female mixer in LA?” It is so specific.
I read another book that shaped some of my outlooks. It’s called Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough by Lori Gottlieb. She’s a therapist and she writes about women in their 30s and the struggles that they have to get into relationships. A lot of them spent so much time looking for the perfect man that they end up not being in a relationship. When they’re in their 30s, if they want to have children and their clock is ticking, they have to settle for somebody good enough as opposed to perfect. She also talked about the percentage and how the perfect men are already taken or married by that time. Their pool has shrunk down. I remember feeling depressed by that thinking like, “Good enough? I’m not somebody who wants to settle.” It is interesting and it makes me wonder too like, “Do you lockout when you’re growing up and if you meet a secure person when you’re in high school or college?” It’s hard not to internalize it and be upset with yourself. Were you married before Jason Green?
I was married for fifteen years pretty much right out of high school and because I’m more secure. As I said, like anything, we all have our issues, but I probably stuck with that relationship a lot longer. Part of it is because I have kids and the military and moving around. I didn’t want to not be around my kids. We were two kids, two teenagers. We probably shouldn’t have been married for fifteen years but we were.
Was she a secure type as well?
She’s probably more anxious. It’s funny because I told her about this book as she was trying to get out of a relationship. I think he’s avoidant. We were talking about our kid or whatever but she had said something and I was like, “Get this book.”
You were secure to her anxious, in other words, because you met in high school.
Right out of high school. She was seventeen and I was nineteen. She now realized that she’s anxious. She’s adopted. She found her birth mother who gave her up but then the two kids that came after, she kept them. She’s probably going to have some issues like abandonment and stuff like that. She’s going to therapy, which is great. I was like, “Read this book,” because I could see it from what my kids say like, “Read the book.” It doesn’t mean she’s going to fix everything but at least she can identify what his issues were. His issues, she always hears that the guy has a second family. He was the second family and his dad is a child psychologist too. He was the second family and then he got found out and then he had to choose. He chose the original family. Now, your dad has abandoned you. With your dad too, that also affects the wife if they’re married or whatever. That mother is now depressed because her husband had a secret life and it’s like you carry that thing.
Also, if we look at epigenetics, it’s not about our parents, but it’s what their parents were like. I think about that with my parents, too, thinking about what I knew of my grandparents and maybe even my great grandparents. A lot of the stuff is passed down to us for so long. It’s a lot of work. You have to be conscious about this and then forgive yourself, your parents, your grandparents and all these people, and then start to do whatever you can to work through it. I’m curious about you as a parent, Jason Green. How has this changed your dynamic with your children? You can’t do anything about how your parents did before you knew all of this. What are you doing proactively as much as you can? Do you teach them these things as well to help them navigate their relationships?
My youngest son knows the word avoidant. It’s funny because we were watching a reality show and he’ll be like, “That person’s avoidant.” He’s like, “I could tell.” I’m training him. My last relationship ended the same week that my oldest daughter’s relationship ended. I was talking to her about it and I’ve realized that she’s a lot like me. Some of that anxious has gone to her. I see that. I know she’s anxious. She’s the only one that’s probably. They’re all not in serious relationships, but I see how they are. I saw how my youngest daughter and her relationship. She could cut it off like, “Crap.” She’s might be avoidant. She’s had some issues with her mom and I’m like, “Is that why?” You do feel like it does cover through generations. I know the anxious side of me was from my mom and my grandma. She still calls me when I’m traveling when I land. I’m like, “I’m 45, Grandma.”
It is the same thing with my mom, “You are always going to be my baby.” I’m like, “I just accepted it.”
My mom, when I landed, she’s like, “Let me know when you land.” I’m like, “All right.” She’s like, “Let me know when you get to the podcast thing,” and I forgot. She is probably pretty sure I’m dead.
She thinks we kidnapped you to take you to matcha.
It’s like, “Cut the cord, mom.” I know I get that from her. My dad, I feel he’s more secure. They got divorced when I was a kid. My kids travel and I’m like, “You’re traveling. You’re adults. Cool. Tell me about it when you’re done.” My mom will be like, “Have them send itinerary.” She’s even worried about the grandkids. I’m like, “They’re adults. They can travel on their own.” I try to break that chain, but some of it is going to be there. I’ve got to worry about my kids, but I don’t need the itinerary.
This has been an interesting conversation. I feel like we could keep digging and digging. Is there a podcast related to this? Have you found any attachment style podcasts?
I’ve only found one person that had one episode.
Now we have added to it.
It’s not new, but this one you have to see them as adults. I feel like it’s taking the time. From what I’ve read, a lot of therapists are finding out about this stuff too. It’s becoming a new thing. It’s taken time for it to catch on and I’m like, “I wish we knew about this twenty years ago.”
What a gift to be able to teach your kids that. I think that anytime I learned something new, I wish that I had known it earlier. For me, if I become a parent, those are the things that I look forward to teaching my kids and keeping in mind for that because I feel like it is such an amazing gift to offer that awareness. My dad taught me as much as he knew and he created a lot of consciousness and intrigue. I learned so much about personal development from my dad and my grandfather. My dad’s dad was like that too. It is amazing to see that the ripple effect of how being interested in growing as a person can affect other people and to have these conversations. That’s a big reason why we have this show is to open up these conversations, raise awareness, and to inspire other people. I hope the readers have found this interesting. Do you want to tell a little bit about what your podcast is?
It’s called Greener Vegan News. It’s been in my head for years. It is three new stories a day that’s vegan-related or climate change or anything environmental. I didn’t see anything out there like that. We have stuff you can read, but I don’t like reading so I created a podcast.
You do. You like this book.
That was the only book I think I ever read that I like. It’s just news. It’s quick, no fluff, just to report stuff. I read more now because I have to prepare for it every day. It worked against me, but I want to provide for anybody. You don’t have to be a new vegan. You could be an old school vegan too.
That’s what’s interesting about your podcast is that you share such new news. It’s hard to keep up with all the news. There are a few social media accounts I follow. I think VegNews does a great job, but that also requires you to read. If you want to listen to a podcast, you can go and binge listen to probably 4 or 5 of your podcast episodes in one day and be educated about what’s going on. I know the episodes I’ve listened to, you were sharing things that I had no idea about. It probably would have taken me days or weeks to know that information if you hadn’t shared it. I’m grateful that you’re doing that to keep people aware of what’s happening. It is like breaking news.
It’s efficient. I feel like Whitney and I have unofficially done that through DMs and Instagram, “Did you see that Tesla is offering all vegan interiors and Volvo is too?” I’m a car guy so anytime vegan-related car news or food news or anything, I feel like we’re always passing posts back and forth. To see the latest and greatest in one place, it makes a lot easier to stay up on that. Fashion, technology, cars, interiors, food and environmental, every single day cool stuff is popping up. In terms of plant-based, animal rights, and environmental stuff. Kudos to you for making it easier for us to seek it out and digest it.
Thank you. I thought there won’t be enough stories each week. I was like, “Am I going to be able to do five stories a week?” Now I’m like, “I have to pick and choose.” There’s so much stuff going on, so it’s nice. It’s a good thing.
Thank you so much for being here and talking about these in-depth subject matters. We have to determine if we’re going to kidnap you and take you to matcha or if you’re going to go to Downtown LA. Have you visited LA before?
Yes, because I grew up in Tucson. That’s where everybody goes for spring break or Mexico, but I haven’t been here for years. I haven’t flown into LAX for many years. It’s been a while, but it’s what I remember.
It is a city that’s constantly changing. You went to Veggie Grill before this. Have you been there before?
The last time I was here, I came for a Veg Festival years ago and so I tried that out and it’s delicious. I had it right before I came here because it’s the closest walking distance.
Jason lives near Downtown. What are some of your number one recommendations for food Downtown?
There are many good restaurants. If you want something super fresh, there’s Wild Living Foods. There’s Au Lac with our favorite Master Chef Ito. There’s also a Veggie Grill Downtown. There’s Shojin if you want vegan Japanese. There’s Locali and the Badasserie, which are sandwiches, breakfast and things like that. There are a lot of great breakfast options also at Urth Caffé. Downtown has come up in a big way. That’s my hood, so I’m there all the time getting stuff and there’s always the Whole Foods Hot Bar in a pinch, but there are some great restaurants down there. You will not go hungry.
There are a lot of vegan-friendly places. Another one that comes to mind is Sweetfin, which has vegan poke. It is one of my favorite places to go to and also Tocaya Organica. It has great organic Mexican food and anything on their menu can be made vegan.
Un Solo Sol is another great vegan Mexican restaurant down there and my favorite pizza place down there is Purgatory Pizza. Their vegan pizza options are incredible.
I want to check some of those out in between the conference.
Pick and choose. Do they have food at the conference?
They have if you get the highest upgrade for snacks. I was like, “No, I’ll just find it.” I got my HappyCow app.
Shout-out to HappyCow for saving everybody while traveling the world.
I’ll be around so if you ever need any advice, send me a message.
Thanks again. To the readers, remember everything is at Wellevatr.com. Click on the podcast button and then look for this episode. If you have any trouble finding anything, you can always email us. It’s [email protected] or you can direct message us on Instagram or Facebook. We’re there for you. We love hearing from you and speaking of which, if you want to leave a comment on this episode, maybe you can tell us what your attachment style is or maybe one of your love languages or if you want to tell us whether you like coffee or tea or whatever. We want you to be part of the conversation so leave us a comment, leave us a review if you enjoyed this episode. Go and check out Jason Green’s podcast as well. We’ll see you in the next episode.
- Jason Green
- @relationshipattachments on TikTok
- The Longevity Now Conference
- Longevity Soda
- Longevity Coffee
- Topo Chico
- @Her.Atlas – TikTok
- @Move_With_Joy – TikTok
- Paige Snyder – past episode
- Quist – past episode
- The 5 Love Languages
- John Bowlby’s Attachment Theory
- It Didn’t Start With You
- Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough
- [email protected]
- Instagram – Wellevatr
- Facebook – Wellevatr
- @GreenerVeganNews – Instagram
About Jason Green
My name is Jason Green and I’m from Tucson, Arizona. I have 4 children, two girls and two boys ages 16-23. I spent 20 years in the U.S. Army, first as a nurse and then as an officer for the Air Defense Branch.
My vegan journey started in 2014 when I developed a heart condition called supraventricular tachycardia. Basically I had an extra electrical pathway that would make my heart rate go as high as 274 beats per minute. Normal is 60-100. I tried to fix it with diet by eliminating common triggers like alcohol, sugar, msg, caffeine. Basically all the good stuff. My oldest son who went vegan the year before challenged me to go vegan for 30 days. I did it and on day 31 I went back to my old ways and started feeling bad again. So I went back to being vegan because I felt better in many ways. Unfortunately I did have to have surgery to burn the extra pathway, but I’m thankful it led me to my vegan lifestyle.
Now I’m retired from the Army. The last two years I’ve been wanting to listen to a podcast that told me what was going on in the vegan world. It didn’t exist. So I created the Greener Vegan News podcast.
And the main reason why I was invited to this podcast has to do with what happened to me in 2019. Like most people go through, I went through a rough break up. A week later I went to a therapist that was actually already set up prior to the break up for us to fix our issues. I’m glad I didn’t cancel it. My therapist taught me about Attachment Styles. In one hour he answered 95% of our relationship issues. Even though it was too late for me with that relationship I became very interested in that subject. And since then I’ve been sharing what I’ve learned with anyone who will listen to help everyone have better relationships and to help your kids grow up with less issues.
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