How do you learn to let go? How do you receive love and healing? We tackle these questions and so much more as our hosts, Jason Wrobel and Whitney Lauritsen, get into a provocative interview with business owner and podcast host, Kelli Tennant. Kelli discusses her views on porn, OnlyFans, and open relationships and talks about her bisexuality and how it changed her relationship with her fiancé, Connor. She also discusses grief, letting go, and manifesting dreams in this hour-long, introspective interview.
Listen to the podcast here:
Learning How To Let Go To Receive Love And Healing With Kelli Tennant
Skeptical, Curious, & Open To Unwinding Control
Oftentimes, it feels like when we are in the discussion of manifesting, having your dreams be actualized into reality, and thinking big. I know that at first glance, these terms might seem a little bit cliche or we’ve heard them over and over again. Prior to hitting the record button with our incredible guest, Kelli here, we were having our wonderful off-microphone banter. She gave me some eye-popping news. I know we don’t know each other, Kelli. However, I love hearing about people’s successes, about people manifesting their dreams, and having these things come to fruition.
The interesting thing about what you shared and I want you to share it because you also said you haven’t shared this publicly. Here on This Might Get Uncomfortable, we love when guests come on and say, “I’ve never said this before, but here I go.” The thing that is interesting about you manifesting these incredible dreams is that it goes against a narrative that it is hard and you have to grind, push, fight, and claw for the things you want in life. That’s a pretty common narrative, especially in Western culture. Kelli, I want you to blow our readers’ minds, as you did mine, about the amazing things that have coalesced for you in your life. Also, your philosophy around actualizing dreams and manifesting because I feel like it goes against this typical narrative. Welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.What do we feel empty within us that we’re looking to fill up? Click To Tweet
Thanks for having me. What fun times to be chatting with you, my life is crazy in all the best ways. We were in Kauai for vacation, my fiancé and I. We were at lunch and he randomly started perusing Redfin and found our dream home. It had only been on the market for two hours. We were like, “We need this house. It checks every box we have.” We reached out to our real estate agent and good friend here in Denver. She hopped on it and got all the info. When we got back a day later, we put in the offer, and we got the house the next day.
Meanwhile, four hours after he finds this house online, he proposes to me and shocks me. I had no idea it was coming. We’re committed. We’re doing the thing, but I didn’t know it was coming, let alone in Hawaii. It has been such a wild time and we’re knee-deep in wedding planning because we’re like, “Let’s do the thing.” It’s all happening at once. I know you don’t know me well, but the former Kelli had a stick up her ass for a long time and was a perfectionist and a control freak. I always was attached to how things needed to look, planning, timelines, and all this stuff.
A week before we went to Hawaii, I was talking to some of my closest girlfriends and we had all been into the loom and had all these awakenings and beautiful experiences. I finally said, “I release all attachment to timelines and control. Whenever we are meant to find our house, we get engaged, we get married, we get pregnant, it’s going to happen. I am no longer controlling this. I let go.” A week later, all of this happened. It has been a whirlwind. It’s the most beautiful lesson I have ever received because it was quick and tangible. You can feel it. I’m going through it. I’m experiencing it quickly after stating those things. It is opening my eyes.
I love, Jason, that you said this about how we force things and we believe it has to be hard. I had this awareness into the loom. I thought, “What if I lived my life with ease? Why is that not possible?” I started to switch the lens through which I was looking at life and how I operate. I see everything through a lens of ease, flow, joy, and fun. That is the experience I’m having. I’m new in this situation. I haven’t talked about this much at all. It’s interesting to be sitting here and saying, “I switched the lens. I let go and look at what opened up.”
Would you call that manifesting? It doesn’t sound quite like manifesting to me. Jason used that word. To me, it does sound more like letting go and releasing attachments, which I perceived to be different than manifesting.
It’s interesting you bring that up. Someone asked me that. They go hand in hand. I’m not a vision boarder. I am not someone who says, “It has to look exactly like this and make it do the thing. It has to come on this timeline.” I used to do that. I got a lot of the things that I wanted but also hated myself and my life. It didn’t make sense to me. I look at myself and I am a manifester according to Human Design. I speak things into existence and they happen. I say I want something or I desire something and it comes together. It doesn’t always look the way I wanted it to. It often comes on a different timeline than I had expected.
When I asked for something or I stated it out loud or I share, “This is my dream. This is what I hope for. I want to create,” it always finds a way to come together. I do feel like it’s this coming together of releasing, letting go, surrendering, and trusting the universe at the same time of asking for what you desire, and being bold about it. Also, being gracious and humble when you get this thing that doesn’t look exactly the way you thought it was going to and your prayer is still answered. Does that make sense?
It completely makes sense. It also is interesting because a lot of the archetypical, at least previous information from a lot of thought leaders and online business gurus, we could interchange a lot of terminologies. They’re like, “Set hard deadlines. Put a date on it. Have the exact amount of money you want to make. If you want a new car, it’s got to be this color, this model, and this thing. If you want to manifest a partner, write your list of desired qualities. Don’t compromise until you get exactly what you want.”
To your point, Kelli, and the reason that what you’re saying is resonant for me is that I am unwinding my control-freak tendencies. I’ve realized that for me, the reason that it’s taking me long to unwind is that it’s been a protective mechanism that has kept me safe. I didn’t feel safe in childhood for a lot of factors in my family, my relationship with my father, and things like that. If I could manipulate and control my external circumstances and the outside world, then I would never be hurt again. Of course, we know that’s not true. We know that there’s no way to avoid heartbreak or loss. It’s part of the human experience.
This idea of letting go, this experience, and what you’ve seen show up since then is interesting. When I receive that, intellectually, I grok it. I’m like, “Yes, Kelli. We got to let go.” There’s still that child part of me that’s like, “What’s going to happen if we fully ￼let go?” It’s interesting how it brings up that fear. I’m curious about your process. Your inner control freak, was that based on a trauma response or something you experienced in your childhood or younger years? Where did that come from? Also, now that you’re in this new lens that you described, do you observe that old paradigm or that old thought pattern coming back at any moment? Does it arise anymore? If so, what do you do with it?
This conversation is what I want everyone in the whole world to learn about because this is the whole point. It’s learning to trust. This comes up for me every day. It is deeply ingrained in who I am. I’ve only been in this personal development, spiritual journey for a few years. I’m still relatively new. It’s deeply ingrained in who I am and the decisions I make. I am constantly taking this bird’s eye view of myself, my life, my actions, how I operate, and seeing and witnessing myself in that and noticing when it comes in. It comes in with the dumbest things. It comes with the biggest things in life. I am constantly in awareness. I try hard not to judge myself. I sit there, see it happening, see why it’s coming up, and ask myself the better question so that I can get to the root of what’s happening.
To your point about where this came from and how it comes up, I look at my childhood and I always wanted to be perfect. I never wanted anyone to be disappointed in me. I was super competitive and I had to be better than everyone. I believed that getting that attention, that validation meant I was worthy, I added value, and that I was lovable, which probably a majority of us go through that experience to some extent.
I always felt like if I failed or I didn’t do something right, I would completely meltdown because I thought that I was such a loser and my parents were not going to love me and people were going to be mad at me and the teachers would think something poor about me. I was always people-pleasing, doing, and trying hard. I realize over the past few years that I don’t have to live in that space. What’s important for me is to honor myself, where I am, and that there is no sense of perfection. There is no way I’m ever going to always get the gold star and be the best.
I had to sit with that and ask myself, “If I’m not perfect, if I’m not the best all the time, if I’m not constantly pleasing people, who am I at my core? What is my worth and value?” That’s the conversation I had a lot with myself when I was on television. I was hosting and doing silent reporting for the Lakers and the Dodgers in an industry where it’s all about how you look, people telling you how hot you are, how amazing you are, and who you have access to.
All I cared about was how I looked, my exterior, “The guys would talk to me after the game,” and how important it was to get the interview. I had wrapped all of this up in my identity of what I looked like. It was finally when I looked at myself in the mirror and I didn’t realize how I’d gotten there and I started to ask myself those questions, “Who am I without all this shit that is such a distraction at my core? What does that look like? How do I want to feel and how do I want to operate?”
What you’re describing is something I’ve noticed within myself and a lot of others and I’m fascinated by it culturally. It came up when I was reading this book Selfie, which examined a lot of how parenting impacted a lot of us who are Millennials. I’m curious if it’s true of Gen Z. I’m not sure how much parenting has shifted since then. Also, with Gen X. There’s a lot of people that grew up seeking validation, either they had parents that praised them a lot. People got hooked on getting praised or they didn’t get it and they’re always seeking it. That was more me or maybe a mix because my parents have always been supportive. They encouraged me to be a high achiever. I felt like I could never quite be good enough.
I struggled, neurologically, with my brain function in school. I would feel like I would try hard. I want to do well, but despite how hard I would try, I wouldn’t quite get the grade. I got into this cycle of like, “I got to keep trying harder and harder. I got to get there.” You get it once, but then you want it again. Similar to you and Jason as well, living in Los Angeles, working in the entertainment industries, and that competitive nature that you get sucked into, you begin to lose sight of yourself. If you spend the time to develop that self-awareness and dig in, you realize how empty all that is.
No matter how many times somebody tells you you’re great, pats you on the back, tells you you’re attractive, no matter what gigs you get, and how much money you make, all of those ends up feeling unfulfilling. It’s like, “Now what?” I’m hearing your story and hearing many people talk about this. I’m curious, Kelli, why do you think that is such a common thing? It feels like a lot of women are having this realization. Jason, I want to hear from you too if you hear men talking about the same thing. Maybe it’s because of a gender-related issue, too, where many women are sexualized and praised.
If you have the physical features that somebody likes, you get something out of it. We see it with a lot of women choosing to use platforms like OnlyFans, for example, which I’m fascinated by. I know sexuality is something that you’re passionate about. There’s one side of me that’s like, “Great. Women should do what they please with their bodies. They should feel in control. There’s no shame in that.” I then wonder, “Are they perpetuating this male gaze?” It’s a subject we haven’t talked about. If you’re interested, I’d love to dig into that with you, too, on how parenting and the male gaze have affected women. It’s also affected men, maybe in an indirect way.No one tells you what to do with grief. Click To Tweet
I’m glad you brought that up. OnlyFans is interesting to me because I post pictures and sometimes I have bras and underwear on. People keep asking me if I’m going to start an OnlyFans. That is the last thing that I would want to do. I also have a lot of friends who have OnlyFans. Here’s where I stand. I used to post sexy pictures on myself, whether it was on TV with short skirts, at the beach, whatever. All I cared about was people telling me that I looked good. My intention was, “Get the most attention as possible. This will make you whole,” or whatever it is I was seeking.
Now, for me, when I post pictures, I feel good in my body for the first time. I feel whole. I feel like the sexy woman that I am. I feel powerful. I feel connected to myself. I love myself for the first time, which is something I could never say, probably up until a couple of years ago. For me, it’s like, “How can I be proud of myself for everything that I’ve done to get my body to this point? Through eating disorders and chronic illness, to mentally and emotionally be in a place where I feel confident and proud of who I am and to share that with people.”
Part of what I believe that I do is give people permission to ask themselves those questions and look at themselves in the mirror and say, “Where am I not in integrity? Where am I out of alignment? Where do I not feel good about myself?” It’s okay to get curious about those things and to also share yourself in a raw way. When you have an OnlyFans or you’re sharing photos, whether you’re half-naked or not, you can be fully clothed with a bag on your head, I don’t care. I feel like it comes down to intention. What is your intention? What are we seeking? What do we feel empty within us that we are trying to fill up?
I have many friends who feel whole, connected to their bodies, extremely grounded and rooted, have OnlyFans, and they don’t do it because they feel empty. It is a beautiful project. It is an artwork. It is a way to connect with people. On top of that, most of these women, they’re interacting more with women in their OnlyFans. They’re talking to women and having powerful conversations. I’ve never been to OnlyFans, but you can talk in there. They’re connecting with other women and women complementing each other and having these beautiful experiences. To me, that’s the best. I’m bisexual. I do not post pictures for men to gawk at me, whistle at me, and tell me how hot I am. I’ve lived that life. It does not lead anywhere except to feel bad about yourself.
For me, if a woman compliments me, it feels good because I feel seen. As women, when we complement each other in any way on our success, on our looks, on how we lead, whatever it is, it carries so much weight. I watch my friends and I see the way they interact with women and I see the bonds that they create or the way they’re shifting the paradigm around that conversation. There’s something here. On the surface, it seems like this wannabe porn site, I’m sure. There’s a lot of people out there with a different intention who are shifting the narrative in the conversation around what it can mean to share your body and not be a work of art and not be appreciated on a deeper level. Also, what that can lead to and giving other people permission to explore things for themselves.
I love that you brought that up because I love to talk about pornography as well, which is something we’ve only talked about a few times on this show. It doesn’t come up often. To your point, I have mixed feelings about it. The reason is that there’s a lot of things that are disturbing to me about the porn industry. There’s a lot of ignorance I have. I want to learn more about sexual trafficking, for example. I don’t want to participate in any way. It seems like there’s a huge issue with that. It’s tough because it is an industry. It’s playing off our human desires to experience pleasure. For that, it’s wonderful when people have pleasure. Sex is wonderful. To your point, expressing yourself and feeling powerful in your body.
OnlyFans seems different in the sense that it seems like people have more control over what they’re posting and how and much more control over the finances because people can set their own prices. They’re aware. Everything’s upfront. You see these incredible stories of people making money on there. The money side of it becomes an issue because that also triggers this primal need for us, the need to feel validated, seen, experience pleasure, and make money. All of these things that come up, I can see the draw to OnlyFans and I’m curious about it.
I haven’t found a moment where I thought, “I’ll give it a try. There’s no shame in it.” I’m curious about how you can use OnlyFans in unique ways and not this cliche sexual way. Maybe you can express yourself sexually in a different way than others and not the straightforward naked photos and sexy poses and whatever else is on there. Same as you, Kelli, I’ve never even seen what’s on OnlyFans. I don’t even know what people are doing. I’m only guessing.
My main point is around the intersection between that and pornography. There are all different ways that people use those tools. It’s not all bad, but we do need to step back and ask ourselves how we’re using these tools and how we’re contributing. I don’t want to contribute to sex trafficking. I don’t want to be oversexualized as a woman. I don’t want my power to be in my appearance and whether or not somebody finds me sexually attractive. That’s where I start to hesitate with things like that, using my body and/or perceived beauty to make money or get attention and fill that void. There’s another side of it where I don’t want to lead as an example of that.
I’m going back to something else you said, Kelli. When we post pictures online, people receive them and they want to compliment us, but then there’s that other level in their head. As human beings, we have these mirror neurons. When we see somebody do something, we might say, “I want to do that, too.” I’ve been caught up in that trap. It’s a delicate balance between what you post and how you do it because if you’re not clear on your why, then you’re not only harming yourself potentially but other people too. That’s why I got on the fence about OnlyFans.
I hear you 100% and I am not responsible for your reaction to me. That’s how I feel. Not you but in general. We are not responsible for people’s responses to us. I can’t control how you’re going to feel about something. This has happened. I post the nicest things with the best of intentions and still had people be like, “I’m so offended.” You cannot win. For me, I had to let that go. That’s the people-pleaser treading on thin ice and making sure that I don’t make anyone uncomfortable. Your show makes people uncomfortable. I feel like my role in this world is to make people uncomfortable. If we’re not uncomfortable, we’re not growing. If someone’s not triggering us at some point, then we’re not looking hard enough. We’re not living our lives.
I get triggered all the time, all day. I have traumas about not being good enough, abandonment, or not feeling good about this. Someone is always showing me, always being a mirror. If I have a visceral response to something, that is not for that person to look at. That is for me to look at because that person is living their life. They may not even know me and I’m over here having a freaking hot flash because I’m looking at a picture that’s making me have all the feelings. That’s on me to ask myself those questions.
Especially with porn, it’s super nuanced. I’m with you. Sex trafficking is the most horrific. I also want nothing to do with that. I also do feel ignorant like you do. That’s a scary place to be. I hate that. I feel like so much more has been coming out. I’m glad because the more information we have, the better decisions we can make, the better we can invest in things. Erika Lust, which is consent-based porn done beautifully. You pay for it. These are actors and sex workers. It’s an incredible way to support people in that space. To also know that the content you’re getting is “clean” and there are not people being trafficked to make it happen.
For me, my relationship with porn is interesting because when I realized that I was interested in women and that I wanted to have threesomes with my fiancé, I didn’t know what that meant. I was terrified because I didn’t know how to have a threesome. How do you invite someone else into the bedroom and what positions are there for three people? I was naive. I truly did not know. My fear of not knowing what to do once I got there was overwhelming. I started watching porn with threesomes so that I could have some semblance of understanding. It truly was educational.
I felt like I was in one of those books, How To Have A Threesome, or Threesomes For Dummies, watching porn. I didn’t know. It truly helped me. It calmed a lot of my fears because I realized that it was possible and it didn’t have to be super clunky. Everyone could have an interesting, cool experience if they wanted. It took a lot of the stress out of it for me. I told a story on a show and it’s so silly, but we had this girl over and she and I were downstairs alone and he’s upstairs. We’re like, “We should try scissoring.” Neither of us has ever scissored. We don’t know how to scissor.
We come upstairs and we asked Connor to look up a How-To Scissor video. The three of us are watching a video about how to scissor. I swear to God, I cannot make this up. There is a time and a place. There’s an intention behind it. If we’re smart about the content that we’re consuming and where we’re going to get these experiences, these videos, whatever it is, then I don’t see a problem with it. When your intention is, “I’m empty. I need to fix something. I need sex because I’m addicted to it,” that’s when it becomes a different conversation. It’s about the way you walk into it and what you’re utilizing it for.
Beautifully said. I have to say that I, too, have no idea how scissoring works. We have an episode coming up with a woman named Susan. After that conversation, I’m like, “I need to look up what scissoring is.” I’m curious about it, too. Even though I don’t identify as bisexual, I am curious about what it’s like as a woman having sex with a woman. Sometimes pornography, to your point, can be a beautiful thing for education because a lot of us might be too embarrassed to ask somebody.
We might not want to look it up on YouTube or something like that. Maybe it feels safer in our heads to look it up through pornography. I love open conversations about sex, but not enough people are having them. One of the reasons with this show being explicit and us talking about anything, why don’t we talk about these things more often so everybody can feel safe to ask these questions? I want to acknowledge that back to you, Kelli. I love that exploration. That’s such a beautiful thing.
Whitney, to your point about not identifying as bisexual but being curious, the terminology is bi-curious. I’ve had my own journey with that throughout my life as a man. This is something I don’t think I ever shared on the show, Whitney￼. I was always finding myself being attracted to men, but I wasn’t clear about how the level or the nuance of that attraction. In my 20s and early 30s, I took to experimenting with men to the degree of making out, groping, fondling, touching those things. I realized after a few of those experiences, I was like, “I don’t want to take this any further.” It didn’t activate me in the way that the connection with a woman activates me. I gave it three times because I want to be sure about this, “I’m going to make out with another dude.”
You’re like, “The third time’s the charm. Does it make my dick hard?”
Pretty much, Kelli. It was like, “No. Flaccid.”
You’ve told me that you tried it once. I didn’t realize it was three times. That’s super fascinating.The more I release, the deeper intimacy and connection I experience. Click To Tweet
The last time was a New Year’s Eve party 2007 into 2008 at a firehouse in downtown LA where a person fell through the firehouse roof and broke their back. The party ended quickly. I was on LSD. I made out with some guy in the stairwell. That was before the person fell through the roof. Talk about a unique New Year’s Eve. That was probably the most unique New Year’s Eve party ever. I made out with this guy. It was the third time. My dick’s not hard. It’s like Laffy Taffy. I also realized that the tactile sensation of beard-on-beard action was not my cup of tea. I want to be the beard. I want to be the one doing the exfoliating. I prefer being dominant. I prefer being the dom.
I realized all of these things through these experiences, which was valuable. I’m saying all of this because I made a point to satisfy that curiosity. I realized that this isn’t my cup of tea. However, do I find the energetics, the presence, and the style of certain men incredibly attractive? Absolutely. I can look at certain men and be like, “That motherfucker’s got it going-on. Props.” Do I want to fuck that guy? No. I had to make that distinction in my mind, though. I have a deep appreciation for masculinity in many ways but I realized it’s not a sexual appreciation. It’s different. It’s more of a soulful aesthetic appreciation rather than a sexual one. I wanted to throw that in because now it’s public.
It’s interesting you say that. Connor, my fiancé, always says that he’s 17% gay. I can’t remember if it’s Chris Hemsworth, Ryan Reynolds, or Ryan Gosling. If he was offered to suck their dicks, he’s like, “I might do it, but it doesn’t make me gay.” We were talking about this. I was like, “If you let a guy suck your dick or if you suck a dick, does it make you gay?” No. Sometimes it’s about having the experience. It’s about that curiosity we’re talking about.
More Gen Z people on Tik Tok have been talking about this. I wonder if that generation is going to be a little bit more experimental. We’re going back into a phase of more open, fluid sexuality, which humanity dips into every once in a while. That’s exciting. It’s taking away a lot of the shame. Maybe you, Jason Wrobel, don’t struggle with shame or fear, but there’s a lot of fear that men experience in their sexuality.
That’s also part of this conversation, too. You hear these stories about men hiding the fact that they’re attracted to other men or have sexual encounters. It seems almost like a cliche in movies and TV. They’ll use that as a plot point sometimes like, “Don’t tell anyone that we fooled around because I don’t want anyone to know that I am attracted to men.” What you’re expressing, Jason, I find it to be super interesting. I wonder for myself, too.
Kelli, I would like to outright ask you, considering that I don’t identify as bisexual. Similar to Jason, I find women attractive, beautiful. Their bodies. There are certain women that I’ve been drawn to, but I’ve never felt a strong desire to take it much further than certain embraces or kisses or whatever. I fear the experience of being more intimate with a woman. It’s curiosity, but I don’t know if it’s for me, to Jason’s point.
There’s something about it that I’m almost afraid that I wouldn’t be into it and then there’d be then that awkward moment where I’m like, “I don’t want to do this anymore. I got to go.” I’m curious, how did you even realize that you were bisexual, Kelli? What was that awakening like? I imagine it’s different for everybody. How do you know when you’re curious versus sexually interested in pursuing someone of the same sex or gender?
What I want to reflect back for anyone having this question come up as you phrased it for yourself is that you feel like you’d be scared you wouldn’t like it and then it would be awkward. What I would offer is that you probably are more scared that you’re going to like it and you don’t know what to do with that feeling. That’s where most people are.
I wouldn’t say that’s true for me. It doesn’t scare me to enjoy it but maybe on some level. I’ve never thought about it that way. Consciously, it doesn’t scare me. I’m more like I wouldn’t want to offend a woman if I was like, “I’m not into this. Sorry, we took it this far.” Maybe that’s more based on my experiences with men or something. Going back to the people-pleasing, I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings or disappoint them. That’s interesting. I’ll reflect on that, for sure.
It’s interesting that you bring that up, not for you but for anyone. What I find is that oftentimes, our fears are confusing to us. We don’t know what the fear is. We tell ourselves that it’s one thing when it’s another. In sexuality, that’s prevalent. For me, my biggest fears are the things that I am most aroused by. I had this conversation with Connor. I was crying. I was like, “What the hell is going on?” It’s confusing when the thing that scares you the most is something that turns you on. We don’t know what to do with that because those feel like conflicting things. There’s a lot of psychology behind that. I’m sure there are 1 million ways to pick that apart depending on who you are and what trauma you have.
For me, when I first realized I was interested in women, I started to let myself have fantasies, whether it was when I was masturbating, having sex, or being more open and curious in my day-to-day life. I started to see that the more curious I got in every aspect, the more it allowed me to need to be open, “What does this look like if I’m attracted to women?” I started noticing myself looking at women differently, thinking about past experiences, starting to put pieces together, and realizing I had been suppressing these feelings for a long time and didn’t understand them.
The more that I had more awakenings, especially spiritually when I first started down this path, the more I started opening myself up and questioning all the things that I believe for so long and realizing that they weren’t true. I started to look at my sexuality. I thought, “What if it isn’t super black and white? What if I could have experiences with women? What if threesomes were okay? What if I created my own rules in a relationship and didn’t live the way I thought I was supposed to live?”
For me, that sent me down a path of exploration to see what felt good. The first time I was with a woman, it was the most natural, normal, organic thing I’ve ever experienced. I thought, “That’s scary.” I thought that this was going to be super uncomfortable. I thought I wouldn’t like it. I was nervous. In reality, this is so easy and it flows. I feel the most myself, beautiful, held and seen. I feel like I’m seeing myself for the first time through her. It was this eye-opening, mind-blowing experience that I had never had before. It helped me realize that the more curious I could be, the more questions I could ask around it. The more open I was, the more fulfilling experiences I was going to have, even though it was scary.
I have, too. I love this unending wave of questions, Kelli. It’s so good, this dynamic that you have with Connor. My girlfriend is bisexual. This has been an interesting, deep, loving, soulful discussion throughout our relationship. When you got together with Connor, at some point, you told him this. What was his reaction to your bisexuality? Follow-up question to that, with bringing the third in, you mentioned that there was some trauma around abandonment. Did the idea or the reality of bringing a third person in trigger abandonment issues with both of you? How did Connor react? Was there any stickiness or challenges negotiating that? How has the idea of having a third partner or a third play person, what’s that done to the trauma and the abandonment?
It triggered all the wounding over and over again. Connor’s response was, “Yes. This is what I wanted. Perfect.” Connor had been within the open relationship community in Austin. He had never been officially in an open relationship but was with all of those people that felt like they were spearheading that movement there. He got to see the ins and outs of what it looks like, how the dynamics were, what works, and what doesn’t. When he ended his relationship with his girlfriend in Austin and moved to San Diego, he was clear that he wanted to date different types of people and have different experiences.
The one thing that he kept coming back to was, “I want to be with a woman who is curious about women, bisexuals, or wants different experiences,” because he likes novelty. He gets bored. He wants to have cool, fun experiences with his partner. When we met, neither of us was looking for a relationship. He was much off having his fun experiences with lots of different people. I was coming out of a relationship and was not looking for a partnership. We didn’t talk about this initially, but we moved quickly.
A couple of months in, I started bringing these things up to him. I’m like, “I have these feelings.” He’s an open person. I felt super comfortable. He let me talk and share and didn’t share anything from his side for a bit and then he said to me, “This is something that I wanted. What’s important to me in partnership is to be able to have these experiences.” I thought, “That’s interesting.” It sent us down this path of what’s possible and how can we create our own rules for relationships? We don’t want to live by labels. We don’t want to be open, poly, be in a throuple, or any of these things. We want to do what feels good and have fun. It has been interesting embarking on this type of relationship.
To your point about abandonment and insecurities, my world has been rocked. It has been its own form of therapy. I have dealt with so much insecurity, comparison, and abandonment. The abandonment was deep. Also, my relationships with women in general. It has been healing. I see the way I operate and the way I’ve been for much of my life thinking, “I’m always going to be left. I’m never good enough and I never do enough. It always means they’re not going to pick me and they’re going to leave.” This is why every time I’ve been in relationships, I’m never left. I leave before they can leave me.
This is the first time where I have committed to staying. Every time something gets hard, I stay. I’m not in an abusive relationship. That’s a different conversation. I’m in a healthy relationship with its own ups and downs. I want to clarify that. Even in those moments, I choose, I trust, and I want this. I’m going to stay. I’m not going to bail. Every time I have those abandonments, wounding moments come up, or I feel insecure, I have a therapist that I talk to. I have girlfriends I talk to. I also bring it to Connor and I say, “I know this feels super irrational. I know you’ve told me 7 million times you’re not going to leave me. I know you choose me.” I had this come up. He proposed to me. We bought a new house together. I’m over here, “What if you leave me?” How much more can he commit￼?
I said, “I don’t want to keep having this conversation. I wanted to tell you how I’m feeling. I’m aware of it. I need to cry. I need you to hold me and I need you to not judge me and get angry that we’re having to have this conversation again.” He said, “Okay.” He laid there and we talked through it. I cried and I explained all the things through the snot and I moved through it. We then had some of the best sex of our lives because we moved all of that energy out, which created the space for deep intimacy. That’s what I get. The more I work through my insecurities, the more I release the deeper intimacy, connection, and pleasure I experience. What keeps me going is knowing that I am expanding and opening up much and I’m being fulfilled much at the same time.
This is huge, Kelli.
I’m curious when you asked that question, were you asking for yourself? You’ve spoken about abandonment, Jason, for yourself. Do you fear being abandoned in your relationship? I’m curious since you’re on the other side of this. You’re dating a bisexual woman. Does that fear come up for you that she might abandon you for another woman or something like that?
This is super interesting. It doesn’t with Laura. However, my previous partner had been poly for a long time with multiple partners. We mutually decided to be monogamous in our relationship container, but there was always this fear that I had. I always wonder if things become self-fulfilling prophecies. I had this fear that I wasn’t enough because she had been poly before me and had been with three different men at once. She had been dating three different guys simultaneously. It was this fear of like, “She was with three guys at once. Now she wants to be with me. How am I going to fill that space in her life that three men previously filled?”
I had this constant fear of not-enoughness. After the relationship ended, she went back to being poly. I don’t want to talk about the psycho-spiritual dynamics of self-fulfilling prophecies. I also don’t want to blame myself. I don’t think that’s useful. It was interesting to notice that the fear that I carried off my not-enoughness through that relationship did contribute to the dissolving of that container. She then immediately went back to being poly. The difference with my relationship is that she has expressed that she has no interest in being with other men. I believe that￼. I intuitively feel that.
The interesting thing, Whitney, to your question is I don’t feel a sense of fear around abandonment or a threat of losing someone if they’re into other women. I have felt in the past when they were into other men or wanting to potentially be with other men. That’s been something I’ve had to unpack for years around this old wiring of being the alpha male, being aggro, having to be more masculine so you won’t go and be with another guy, and a lot of outdated old shit that didn’t result in her staying. As I ramped up my alpha-maleness to try and repel the other men, it backfired.
I have another follow-up question for both of you. Kelli, I can relate to a lot of what you’re saying about the people-pleasing and the not-enoughness. That’s a huge part of my journey and wounds that come up for me. There’s that book called Attached. There’s anxious versus avoidant. I’m anxious in relationships and that comes up. I’ve learned to work more towards a secure place but still have work to do. Jason’s avoidant. I was also wondering about some of your experiences, Jason. It’s got to be different than I would experience being an anxious person. Kelli, are you also an anxious attachment style or a recovering anxious attachment?
I’m on the healthy side of anxious and Connor’s on the healthy side of avoidant. We’re slowly coming to in the middle.
Jason, do you know if Laura is on the anxious side? It’s common for anxious and avoidants to be attracted to one another, but that can be a huge challenge in relationships.
She probably is. I don’t want to diagnose Laura. It’s not my place to diagnose her. However, I have observed that she craves and asks for reassurance in different ways than I do. It seems that her desire for verbal reassurance is similar in some ways to what you described with your dynamic with Connor, Kelli. I find that’s a mirror to my experience with my partner Laura. If I had to venture a guess, I would also say that she probably is prototypical anxious and I’m working through my avoidant tendencies. I’m proud of the progress that I’m making in the sense that I’ve observed situations that have come up with Laura that are not exact but similar or reminiscent of situations I’ve had with partners in the past.How often do we stay where we are and take responsibility? Click To Tweet
In the past, I’ve been like, “I’m done. I’m out. Bye. Fuck this.” Similar to what you said, Kelli, where it’s like, “I’m going to abandon you before you abandoned me.” Certain situations have come up with Laura where in the past, I would be like, “I’m out,” and I’ve stayed. I’ve stayed in the discomfort. I’ve stayed in the pain. I’ve stayed in the what-the-fuck-is-happening moments. That’s been rewarding for many reasons. I’m working on my avoidant tendencies and creating pattern interrupts where I’m not bailing when I get triggered in certain ways or bailing when things “get hard.” For me, I suppose I’m on the healthier side of avoidance, working on it. It feels good to work on it.
I love that you bring that up, though, because I don’t feel like enough people have the patience to stay, trust, and see what comes forward. There are many times I’ve been reflecting since we got engaged because I feel like it’s been a whirlwind the last few years. I’m thinking back to all the moments where we almost broke up or we got in a huge fight. I’m like, “Look at us. We made it this far.” I’ve never been in a relationship that went past two years. We’re past two years. It’s funny. The reason that we’re here is that when we wanted to punch each other and hated each other and we’re fighting and couldn’t see eye to eye and felt no compassion, and we’re like, “Fuck you,” we stayed. We got angry. We fought. We did the thing.
I remember there was this one night and it was probably the worst fight we’ve ever had. He came downstairs and started packing a bag and was looking at apartments and was like, “I’m done with this shit. This is not okay.” He was yelling. He’s not a yeller. I was freaking out. I remember I gave him some space for a few minutes, then I walked downstairs and he was laying on the bed. I looked at him and I said, “What are you doing?” He’s like, “I don’t know.” He stayed. He laid on the bed. He waited. He didn’t know what he was doing. He felt this need to sit with it. We talked and it was one of the most profound moments for our relationship because he chose to stay and have the conversation.
In our society, it’s that immediate gratification. “Fuck you. There are 700 people on Bumble waiting for me to swipe right on them. There are many options.” How often do we stay where we are and say, “What do I get to learn here? Where do I get to take responsibility for this experience? Where do I get to take responsibility for creating my reality? How am I participating? What is it that I want to get out of this?” If we want deep, meaningful, close relationships that are connected and intimate, we get to stay in those moments. Running away is going to perpetuate the same cycle over and over again. You’re keeping yourself from meeting yourself. It’s not even about meeting the other person or creating intimacy with someone else. You’re running away from your intimacy.
This is an interesting thing, too. In the dynamic you have with Connor, Kelli, how do you decide when you are dealing with something difficult, painful, confusing for you? To your point, I completely agree that all relationships, especially intimate ones, are a container for revelation, growth, and knowing self. When things are hard, difficult, scary, fucked up, what-the-hell-is-going-on, how do you decide what to bring to your therapist, what to bring to your friends and what to bring to Connor? Maybe depending on the level of severity or pain, how do you decipher what to bring to whom in your life for support?
First of all, I want to start this with. Your partner is not your everything. I learned that a couple of years ago. I did not know. I thought your partner is supposed to be everything, your best friend, the person you do everything with and you process everything with. I thought that was it. I had no idea. I want to share that with everyone who may not know that revelation. Beyond that, you need people. We are meant to be in villages, in tribes, with our people in the community. That is how you raise children. That is how you are in a relationship and family. We have lost that.
When I think about that, I think about my sisterhood that I get to rely on. I think about my incredible therapist. Connor and I did somatic therapy together. We have therapists together. We have them to rely on. We then have the container of our relationship. For me, this goes back to knowing each other and having compassion, understanding each other’s attachment styles, wounding, communication, all of that. I know that Connor feels attacked if I bring something to him in a high emotional state that I have not yet processed at all. It’s like, “I am triggered. I’m freaking out. I’m coming at you.” It’s overwhelming for him because I also am physically overwhelming. I want to smother him and be on top of him. He is avoidant and likes distance.
As we have learned over the last few years, it’s important to create distance and to also not have super high emotional conversations. Is it going to happen? Yes, of course. What I do is if I’m upset about something, I take time before jumping on him, responding, or saying, “I’m freaking out about this thing.” For me, it’s usually, “I need something for myself. I need to be held. I need to take a bath. I’m not doing enough self-care. I’m not taking care of myself. I’m feeling chaotic, out of my body, ungrounded.” My response is all over the place. If I take a little time and think about it, I ask myself, “What is it that I need right now,” not, “Why is he pissing me off? Why is he such a dick?” It always comes back to something that is going on inside of me and he’s happening to trigger it.
Maybe he has been a dick and we got to talk about it. Maybe he did something that wasn’t okay and it requires a conversation, but it doesn’t require a conversation the way I would initially have it. That’s that part. I pause and wait. We show each other compassion and we have more grounded conversations that feel productive. I also have found that rather than going to him immediately with a lot of things, it’s been helpful to talk to my therapist when it’s something that I’m confused about or I’m personally experiencing and he’s a part of.
Much of what is difficult for me has nothing to do with him. He’s this bystander in my experience. I’m the one that’s in my head, panicking, feeling anxiety. I don’t like the unknown. I don’t like new experiences where I feel out of control. That has nothing to do with him, though he’s a part of them. If I can take that and go to a therapist or talk to my girlfriends and say, “This is what I’m feeling. This is how my body is feeling,” I can process it with them and then understand what’s happening. I then take it to him and say, “This is what I’ve been feeling. This has nothing to do with you. I wanted you to know where I am. This is something I’m trying to work through.”
That’s a beautiful approach. I think about conversations where friends, my partner, my mom, anyone that I’m close to or intimate in my life will say, “Why are you upset? What’s wrong? What’s going on? What’s happening?” I don’t have clarity. It’s difficult to move that conversation forward if I’m not even sure what’s happening inside of myself. To your point, Kelly. That’s such wonderful advice and wisdom you’re sharing with us. I often need to tell people in my life, “I don’t know. Can I bring this back to you when I’m clear?” That’s been tough.
Sometimes in my life, people were like, “Let’s talk about it.” I’m like, “I’m not ready to talk about it because I need clarity within myself so we can have a structure to have a productive and loving conversation.” If I don’t have that clarity, it tends to go round and round in circles with that person. That’s a goldmine you shared. With this whole new process, I want to go back to the beginning of letting go and surrendering. Have you had freak-out moments in the midst of this?
To me, it’s almost like trying on a suit. Maybe because you talked about Chris Hemsworth and I’m thinking about Thor. It’s almost like you have this new superhero suit. You’re like, “I’ve got these powers. I’m freaked out by these new powers I’ve got.” It’s like the archetypical superhero story when the superhero or superheroine realizes their powers and it’s exciting, but it’s also terrifying. Have you had those moments of this process of incredible dreams coming true, the engagement, the house, and everything that’s going on? Have you had that moment of like, “What am I going to do with these powers?”Your partner is not your everything (I just learned that). Click To Tweet
I’ve had all the feelings. What I am experiencing is a level of self-awareness that I’ve never had before. I’m one of the most self-aware people I’ve ever been around. It’s how I am. It’s taken to the nth degree. Everything I do, I’m watching from above. I’m aware of every single moment and how it’s playing out. It feels like time has slowed down and expanded. I’m experiencing everything. Part of that is because I’m present and I enjoy in these moments rather than rushing through, grinding, being a bridezilla, panicking about a house, and all these things. I have gone in with the intention of ease and joy and playfulness.
It feels like my whole life is time is truly bending and expanding for me to be present to the moments because I wasn’t for so long and I missed much of my life because I was focused on doing and how hard I can work. I have to take care of all these things. I have more to-do lists on my plate than I ever have. I feel at peace and good. It’s the intention. I know that I’ve had these powers for so long. That is part of letting go. As I’ve let go, I’ve created space to invite in all of this awareness, clearing my channel, and understanding what I am capable of on a soul level, not in this meat suit but meeting my soul for the first time and acknowledging it. It’s exciting. It also brings me to my knees in a way.
We had a hard year in 2020. My mom passed away from cancer and then our puppy was killed in a tragic accident. Connor and I were broken. It was horrible. Everyone’s in a pandemic. That was shitty, too. It was all the things at once. I went through a year of deep grief, sadness, fully broken, and wondering what’s the point of life. I thought to myself multiple times, “I want to die so I can go be with our puppy.” He felt like my baby. I’m like, “What’s the point?” That was the most powerful thing for me and I credit who I am to those experiences because it broke me and it showed me that I didn’t have control. It showed me what matters. It showed me my priorities. It showed me my core values. It showed me how much love I have for my little family and what I care about.
2021 has much been surrendering and letting go of whatever is meant for me and welcoming in all of that because I’ve seen how bad it can be. It’s like your worst nightmares come to life. Now, I have that perspective. I’m able to see much more clearly and welcome in these experiences because my container expanded. I have the sadness, grief, fear, trauma, and pain because I experienced it deeply and I sat with it and went there. That’s why I feel like I’m able to have what I have because I opened up that container so that it could keep growing and that I could have that joy and abundance and all the things.
First of all, I want to say I’m sorry to hear about your losses. I got super emotional with you telling that. How do you process grief, Kelli? I feel like it’s one of those things that are unique to each person, how we handle it and what that feels like. To go against the pressure as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, as a creator, to shove that down and keep going, I feel like that’s all too common to the detriment, of course, of our mental and emotional health long-term. We’re in the middle of this pandemic. You’re enduring these deeply traumatic losses. What did you do to take yourself out of the grind, the hustle, and process and feel this grief? What was that like for you?
Thank you. It was interesting. For anyone who has experienced the loss of any people or pets close to you, you don’t know what it’s like until you go through it. My grandmother died years ago and that was hard but I also was a very different person. I was 21 or 22. It was a different experience because I didn’t have awareness. I wasn’t spiritual and all the things. Going through it now felt way different. I didn’t know that I could feel those things. I didn’t know that I could feel that sad. I didn’t know that emotion existed. I’m like, “Cool. I’ve had sadness and I cry.” No, that’s a level that there are no words for.
My mom dying prepared me a little bit for handling death and grief in a way. Our puppy died 3 or 4 months after she died and it was hard seeing her pass away. I was there when she died. I was holding her and this whole thing, but I also saw the bigger picture of how it happened and it was all divine timing and meant to be. Her passing healed our relationship. I’m spiritual, so I talked to her every day in the ethereal. I believe she’s my guide and all the things.
For me, that was super healing. When our puppy died, he was 9.5 months old and was hit by a car. You don’t expect that. It broke me and hurt me, but it crushed Conner in a way I have never seen someone be that crushed. It sucked his soul out of him. He was physically in a ball on the couch and couldn’t move and breathe. We were both on the floor. I was throwing up and I remember both of us on the floor on all fours and I was like, “How do we ever get up from this? What do you do after this?” No one tells you what to do in these situations.It’s very confusing when the thing that scares you the most is actually something that turns you on, and we don’t know what to do with that. Click To Tweet
I knew that one of us had to get their crap together because we couldn’t both be like that. There were logistics and things. I zoomed out and I was like, “I’m going to do this stuff.” I handled some of these things and then I remember for days, he made sure we were drinking water. He was like, “Here’s some water.” We laugh about it now and like, “How did you know to think about hydrating when we’re going through such grief?” He’s like, “I don’t know. It just happened.” I remember we were in such a dark place and he still showed up and said, “What can I do for you? How can I help you?” Same thing for me.
In the hardest moment of both of our lives, we showed up as who we are. We were of service to each other and we held each other. We were sad and we had no expectations. We were just present to the experience. I went into my spiritual practice. Our puppy’s name is Remy and I immediately was like, “I’m talking to Remy every day.” I’d go to his picture, touch it, and I would talk to him and say, “Good morning.” I would keep him with me all the time and he’s with me all the time. We talk all the time. It took Conner a lot longer. He was depressed. He didn’t have any will to do anything. We still cry about the puppy once a week at least and we talk about him daily. We have his little brother, who we got five days later, which was talking about angelic divine timing. We often call him Remy on accident, but he’s so in our lives.
I don’t think that there’s a way to do it. For me it was, how can I have perspective around this? Understanding the big picture and knowing that there’s something bigger than me going on. I do trust the universe, my angels, my guides, God, and all the things. I believe that everything is meant to be and we create our reality. Conner and I are different people in the best ways possible after that experience and it made our relationship what it is now. I’m grateful that we had this gift of this little nugget who made us better people even in losing him. I feel like I didn’t answer your question.
You did answer it because you’re real and open about this. I want to appreciate you for being willing to discuss it. I’m an empathic person, so I’m feeling this right now.
That’s the first time I’ve ever talked about it and I haven’t sobbed.
I’m feeling super emotional about it because I feel a lot. Even though it’s our first time talking to you, Kelli, getting deep in this show, I want to thank you for sharing your process, strength, and healing process, and the fact that you’re still in this healing process around it. Loss and death, in general, are interesting because we have a tendency culturally to avoid talking about it, ruminating on it, and even contemplating it.
My mother and my mentor, who’s more of a father to me than my actual blood father was, are both getting up there in age. I’ve had some uncomfortable discussions with both of them about dying. There are some physical ailments that are happening as they go on. It’s been an elucidating healing part of my life to have these discussions rather than acting like they’re not going to die because I know that they will. It’s something that I want to discuss with them before it happens.
Another part of my appreciation for you being open is the willingness to discuss death and loss, and not act like it’s this taboo thing that doesn’t exist. It’s coming for all of us. The willingness to discuss it and be open about sexuality and death, these are two of the topics that people are terrified to discuss. We’ve gone into both of those arenas. It’s wonderful that you’ve been here, Kelli, to unpack these things. As we get close to the finish line, I wanted to bring up one thing that flashed in my mind because you mentioned you were in Kauai. That’s where you got engaged and found your dream house. We have a mutual acquaintance/mentor in common, Mr. Howard Wills. I know he was on your podcast. I’m curious, did you see Howard when you were on Kauai. Did you visit him?
No, I didn’t see him. We weren’t there for long enough.
Howard has been an interesting presence in my life for about ten years and that’s probably a story for another time. Howard has also been this older father-type figure I’ve had. I’ve had a few men in my life that have filled the void that has been there for me. When I saw he was on your podcast, I listened to a big chunk of that episode and I got excited. How did you connect with Howard? How did you find him? Tell me a little bit about that because we have that mutual connection.
I met Howard through my Ayurvedic doctor in Los Angeles, Martha Soffer, she runs Surya Spa. Do you know Martha?
I know Martha and Roger.
Martha saved my life. She helped me when I had a chronic illness for fourteen years. I went to see her, and then my functional medicine doctor let go close in time to one another. They both knew what was going on. I’ve done almost a month of Panchakarma with her. She has been an integral part of my life. I’m an investor in Surya. I love everything they’re about. I was there and I was sick. I was having this bad back pain. I could not get it to go away and it had been there for a long time. She said, “There’s a healer here and you need to go see him.”
She takes me into the kitchen and Howard is at the table eating a bagel and shoving a bagel in his mouth. Martha walks me over and says, “This is Howard.” Howard says, “What’s going on?” I tell him I have back pain and he’s chewing this bagel. You know him, so you get it. He starts snapping his fingers and my back is 40% better within 30 seconds. I was like, “I’m into some weird shit, but this is some next-level weird shit.”
They invited me to his circle that he was doing that next night in Surya. I went and there were maybe 25 of us in the room. He worked with almost every single person individually and then worked on the group. I left that circle and I’ve never had that back pain again. I kid you not. It was gone. It was all energy. He asked me what I was holding on to and who I was angry at. I stood up and I said, “My ex.” He said, “Do you forgive him?” We went through the forgiveness prayers and he worked his amazing snapping magic. My back never hurt again.
It’s similar to my experience as well. Skeptical but curious, but also open. It shows you with healing and transformation. There’s so much that we don’t understand. Letting go of judgment, letting go of preconceived notions, being open to receive and not knowing how it works. Is it angels? Is it spirit guides? Is Howard a channel for God? We could put a ton of different labels on it. I prefer not to put labels on stuff like that. I prefer to say, “I don’t know how this is working, but it is working.” The kickoff here is, can we be open to receiving love? Can we be open to receiving healing? Can we be open to receiving blessings?
Not knowing how all this works because on the highest level, do we even know what we are? We will say we’re human beings or Homo sapiens, we’re here on this Earth, and we’re in these meat suits, but to me, I get curious about the mystery of life and how much we don’t know. One of the things that moves me forward is curiosity and all of that. With that said, Kelli, we’ll wrap this beautiful episode with you because it’s been such an incredible journey. You’ve been such a delight and a huge open-hearted soul. This episode has gone in directions I certainly didn’t anticipate and it’s been incredibly beautiful and cracking me wide open. Thank you for everything that you shared.
Thank you. I want to add one more thing that helped me in processing grief, death, and life’s big questions. There’s a book called Journey of Souls. I don’t know if you guys have heard of it. It was written by a hypnotherapist in the 1970s. He shares about twenty different clients and he takes them through a hypnotic experience into their transition in past lives when they have transitioned and dying or when their soul has come back to reincarnate. It’s incredible. It’s the best book I’ve ever read. I recommend it to everyone.
It helped me have perspective about what our souls choose coming into these lives and the lessons we learn, our soul families, soul contracts, and all of those things. We get caught up in this 3D human experience and reading this book helped me see that everything truly is divine and meant to be. We do create our experience and we know what is best for us. We let our egos get in the way and the human being is hard and it becomes a thing.The more information we have, the better decisions we can make. Click To Tweet
This book gives you perspective on everyone in their sovereignty being on their path, whether they’re a puppy, a person, your mom, a tree, or whatever it is. We choose this experience so that we can learn the lessons we get to learn. If you can zoom out from the hard day-to-day stuff that we make hard for ourselves and see the big picture, it puts my heart at ease because I know that there’s so much that I don’t see and feel I have awareness of as a human that it is happening. It’s beyond me, and then it’s perfect and it’s meant to be. I just wanted to share that with you and your readers.
￼I can’t wait to check it out. I’m adding that to my personal reading list. Just that phrase, putting your soul at ease, that’s how I feel after having you on the show. We are honored￼. Thank you, Kelli, for taking us on a journey. It is the closest to coming out of a meditative experience. I feel like I took a good yoga class or did a breathwork class or something like that. If the readers feel similarly, we’d love to hear from you or you can reach out to Kelli. Any of us would love to hear how this episode resonated with you. Thank you for reading.
*We use affiliate links in our show notes. This means we receive a small sales commission if you purchase an item based on our recommendation.
- Kelli Tennant
- Erika Lust
- How To Have A Threesome
- Howard Wills
- Howard Wills + The Goddesses: A Private Healing Session on Apple Podcasts
- Surya Spa
- Journey of Souls
About Kelli Tennant
Kelli is a Top 50 Podcast host leading the way for millennial women to step into their sexuality unapologetically. As a former TV Host, she knows what it’s like to be a good girl and follow the rules. And now she’s helping others break free of toxic lies and rules and create a state of flow and radical honesty.
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