We tend to lose sight of how little time certain things had been around that we miss on really probing into their misconceptions, misunderstandings, and misuses to really see the tangible benefits. In this part two of Jason Wrobel’s Ayahuasca journey, he and Whitney Lauritsen continue to educate us about the use and benefits of plant medicines and drugs, particularly that of Ayahuasca. They share their own experiences with it, along with their realizations on looking at the fullness of life with a love that heals and that many people overlook in their day-to-day lives. Bringing as well wisdom from another person, Jason and Whitney take out Michael Pollan’s book, How to Change Your Mind, and discuss how it teaches us about the physiological, mental, and spiritual healing properties of psychedelics. If you’re curious about this topic, then don’t miss out on this episode.
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Jason Wrobel’s Ayahuasca Journey Part Two: Finding Healing In Unconditional Love
Welcome to part two of this story about Jason’s Ayahuasca journey. If you haven’t read part one yet, it is the previous episode. You can find that along with anything that we talked about such as resources, books and videos at Wellevatr.com. I’m going to add in there for this episode and perhaps for the previous episode as well, is this book that I’m reading by Michael Pollan called How to Change Your Mind. I’m listening to the audiobook, which is read by Michael Pollan. It is wonderful and I wish that I had listened to it its entirety before we started this conversation because I am getting educated on the use of these plant medicines, drugs and the things that they can do and the benefits of them. The whole history of it is fascinating. What I didn’t realize is that a lot of these drugs and medicines weren’t used or didn’t become popular or prevalent until the ‘50s, which is fascinating.
That was not in either of our lifetimes, Jason or I, but definitely parents and grandparents. It’s fascinating how I think we can lose sight of how little time certain things had been around. I suppose we have to keep that in mind when we talk about how much we understand something because if it’s only been around for 50, 60 or 70 years maybe, that’s such a short period of time. All of these misconceptions, misunderstandings, misuses, perhaps is not enough time to get clear on the benefits of things. Keeping an open mind is incredibly important. Something that Michael Pollan talks about in this book is how perceptions have changed about things like Ayahuasca, LSD, peyote, and all these different tools that we can use for our brains.
I stumbled upon some research articles regarding Ayahuasca and its ability that they’ve looked at in certain research studies to overcome an alcohol addiction, tobacco addiction, and certain physical addictions. They’ve seen dramatic improvements in the rates of addiction going down and people who’ve consistently use this. We don’t have a massive control group in the US, so a lot of these studies were from South America. People that have been ritualistically or religiously using Ayahuasca in ceremony, tied to certain churches or religious practices. Certainly, I think if we look at the efficacy of things like Ayahuasca, LSD or MDMA, it’s encouraging to see that more research is being done.
If you compare it to certain pharmaceutical research, which in some cases there’s not a lot of research with pharmaceuticals either, they just let them out on the market. It’s encouraging to see that. I’ve also read that Johns Hopkins University and other American universities are getting funding to conduct research into psychedelic drugs and their effects on depression, PTSD, addiction and things like that. I’m bolstered by the fact that things are changing where people are looking at these as potential legal mainstream options to help people with their mental and psychological health. I think that’s awesome.
I remember vividly where we left off in part one, which is diarrhea. You don’t want to miss that episode. Make sure that you read it. I think this episode could be good as a standalone, but it works as a complement to the first one. This is our first two-parter as well, which is cool. Maybe we should do this more often. We’d love your feedback. You can leave us reviews over at iTunes and other platforms. You can comment on the website at Wellevatr.com. We’d love to hear from you. We’re curious about what you think about topics like this and the format of the entire show. With no further ado, let’s dive into what happened after diarrhea.
The purging that I was experiencing during the ceremony was consistent. I can’t estimate time in this experience because it felt to me like it was the longest night of my life.Let's not judge each other for our choices. Live and let live, especially if we're not harming other beings in the process. Click To Tweet
Can we pause for a moment? The funniest thing that has come to mind and also when you’re talking about this, do you want to share that story when you got high? I came over and you were crawling out of your hands and knees in your house.
Why do you want me to tell that story?
It’s funny and also you didn’t know when that was going to end. You were in your head at that moment. It probably seems trivial after Ayahuasca. That’s something many readers have experienced or understand, given that marijuana is becoming more and more acceptable throughout the world. I think it’s something that a lot of people have used in their life in one way or another or at least they know somebody who’s used it. That story is relatable and also amusing to me.
Clearly, amongst many other activities and choices in my life, my political career has been haberdashed completely by sharing this.
Is that still true?
One time he admitted to smoking dope. We can’t elect him to be president.
Even they did that to Elon Musk.
We’re all human beings. I feel like a lot of the people condemning other people for their life choices are often doing the thing that condemns behind closed doors or worse. Let’s not judge each other for our choices. Live and let live, especially if we’re not harming other beings in the process.
We hear all these stories of people in power sexually abusing others. That to me is awful, but yet it almost seems a lot of people view drugs just as worse or something, which is bizarre to me.
It goes back to if you, the audience, want to read part one of this, which who’ve you to do that. I went on a mini-rant about how psychedelics are often classified as schedule one narcotics like cocaine and heroin. We can’t lump extremely damaging illicit drugs in the same category as entheogens and psychedelics that do have some physiological, mental, and spiritual healing properties. The federal government is like, “Let’s lump them all in the same category.” I hope there is more reform and I do believe there’s going to be more reform in that regard.
Back to the story, because you want me to tell that. A few years ago, this was 2015, I was turned on to these organic, raw coconut macaroon edibles that I had obtained from a local dispensary. They were raw vegan made with coconut oil, super delicious. They were chocolate. I miscalculated my dosage in terms of the milligrams of THC. I essentially did the math wrong. What I thought was a normal dose for me, which in this case, I think it was maybe 30 milligrams. I read the package wrong and I ended up taking 60 milligrams.
Some people, even if they’ve tried marijuana before, may not even understand milligrams. For me, that’s a relatively latest understanding that I’ve had. For me, I can have 2 to 5 milligrams of edibles and feel good. If I have close to ten, I feel like I’m going to lose my mind. I cannot even imagine what 60 milligrams feels like. I have a lot of compassion for you because I feel like the last time I had an intense experience on edibles was probably between 5 to 10 milligrams. I know the difference in my body between 2 to 5 milligrams, that’s when I feel good. I can function. I feel solid. I feel like I’m enjoying myself and relax.
If I’m between 5 to 10 milligrams, that’s starting to feel uncomfortable because maybe I feel a little bit less in control or my brain’s a little foggy or physically. I feel things slowed down but more. When the last times I had between 5 to 10 milligrams, I went to a party with you and I remember all I wanted to do was sit down on the couch and be left alone. To me, that was very unpleasant. I think I’ve got a little nauseous. It was not good. How much of a difference is there between 10 and 60 milligrams? The difference between how you feel at 10 milligrams, is it that drastically different than how you feel at 30 and 60 milligrams?
From my body, it is. I’ve experimented not only with THC but more often I take CBD for anxiety and mental balance. I think I may have mentioned this on part one where I have a sleep tincture that I take before bed, which is a 1:1 CBD, THC but it also has chamomile, elderflower and skullcap. A lot of relaxing, calming herbs.
Even if you don’t want THC, which is associated with marijuana, CBD is a whole other story, which we’ve talked about in other episodes. If you’re reading and thinking, “I don’t want to do drugs, but I’m curious about other people’s experiences.” We do encourage people to experiment with CBD because that doesn’t have the psychoactive side of it. You’ve experimented a lot with the ratios of milligrams there. I guess what I don’t know because I don’t know what the max amount I’ve ever had as an edible has been. I remember a few times that I was more aware, but in the past, people would hand me a cookie, brownie or whatever and I would take it. What’s interesting about things being more regulated. One of the big benefits is my original and many people’s experiences have been like this thing you’re sneaking around.
Your friends get it somehow. You’ve no idea where it’s coming from. You don’t know how much you’re taking. That’s true with a lot of drugs. One of the unfortunate sides of things being legal or not regulated, any of that. You don’t know exactly what you’re getting. Whereas if you’re going to a dispensary and it’s completely legal for you to do so, you get a much higher-level experience because you know a lot more about what you’re taking. In a way, it’s a lot safer and you become more educated about it. Jason and I went into a dispensary in Colorado. It’s like going to a liquor store, perhaps even a cafe to order a coffee. It’s that simple and you can ask the people that work there a lot of information, so you feel aware.
I also noticed, and I know we’re getting tangential, but welcome to the show. When I have gone to dispensaries in Colorado. Here in California, Detroit, my hometown, Michigan and also Vegas. It’s becoming ubiquitous to the point where in LA, we have our first cannabis cafe, which I haven’t been to yet. It’s the first actual public cafe that has cannabis-infused there in West Hollywood. The overarching thing to me is if people make a sweeping generalization, and I feel like this is probably an offshoot of the war on drugs. The DARE campaign of the ‘80s with Nancy Reagan. We’ve been fed this blanket statement for decades of drugs are bad.There are only two choices when you're doing a psychedelic plant medicine, you either resist or surrender. Click To Tweet
These drugs, the pharmaceutical drugs, tobacco and alcohol, those drugs are okay. These drugs over here, the ones that have the potential to help and heal you, those are bad. I’m encouraged by seeing not only more clinical research being funded, but more distinctions being made of things that have the potential to do deep harm in the body a la heroin and cocaine. Things that if you use them with the right intention, that’s a point I want to make. I find that when I’m doing psychedelics, it is with the intention of exploring more of myself. Finding out more of who I am and gaining clarity.
Usually, there’s something in my mind’s eye that I’m asking for clarity on. It’s done with the intention of experiencing something that hopefully will lead to clarity and healing, which I think I do believe that the energetics of plant medicine responds to the energy that you’re engaging with it. When I’ve done psilocybin mushrooms in the past, I found that my state of being and who I’m with and my environment has a direct impact on what I’m going to experience. It’s almost as if the plant is reading my energy and reflecting back to me, my environment and state. It’s enhancing it. It’s reflecting it. I do feel that the intention and the energy we bring to these experiences have a lot to do with ultimately what we are going to experience this medicine. I believe that.
Another little tangent is you don’t necessarily have to do drugs to achieve these benefits. They’re like a shortcut in some cases or an avenue to get there. We’re all trying to get to the same place. I’m doing it in different ways. If you’re reading this and thinking, “I’m not that sure about Ayahuasca, marijuana or mushrooms.” Maybe those things don’t appeal to you and you have a personal reason as some people do. They call themselves a straight edge. My point being is that after making the part one of this, I’ve been reflecting on it a lot. I am enjoying reading and listening to Michael Pollan’s book on this. I also noticed something fascinating that I’m not exactly sure, but sometimes we learn something. It gives us an opportunity to be more present and take the information in a different way. When you were talking about at the end of part 1 of these 2 episodes, Jason and talking about releasing and how you smelled something this medication that you took as a kid that you haven’t taken since.
It’s a specific smell to that. I remember clearly a medicine that I took and part of me was like, “I wonder if I would have the same thing.” There’s one medication I took as a little kid that was revolting to me back then. Every once in a while, I taste or smell something like it. I noticed in my yoga class something similar to what you experienced except it was a mental release. I’ve noticed that when I take hot yoga. I’m sweating and I’m also moving my body and there are many healing powers to it. If you’re looking for something other than drugs, I think yoga and meditation or any type of movement, but yoga is connected to mind, body and spirit. It’s a wonderful way to get to know yourself, to move, express yourself, but also heal. It occurred to me in a yoga class that I took, that thoughts were coming up that I had no idea where they were coming from. This is a common thing for me in yoga. I’ll be in yoga class, my mind will start wandering.
I’ll find myself thinking about things that have happened to me, people, places, events and I’ll have no idea why they came to mind. Sometimes I’m in my class thinking, “Why do I think about that?” I can’t think of any stimulus that has brought that to mind and then it occurred to me. Perhaps those have been stored in my tissues and when I’m moving my body, I’m releasing some old emotions that were stored in our body like that medication was stored in your body through Ayahuasca. It had never occurred to me before. I know the phrase, “The issues in your tissues.” A lot of people think about releasing things in your hips. I’ll think of that every once in a while, and certain poses. It seems strange that it hadn’t occurred to me but it’s almost as if when I’m in yoga, I’m processing all sorts of past experiences. I became aware of that.
It’s interesting to me of what I’ve learned and experienced in somatic therapy and somatic experience because of the therapist that I have worked with for several years in LA. He does somatic therapy where the principal so far as I understand is that we will address the traumatic experiences of the past. Rather than doing talk therapy or hashing it out verbally, we will get into where in the body do I remember restriction, constraint and trauma being stored. I’ve noticed interestingly that whenever we’ve gone into this somatic experiencing and bring up these traumatic events from the past, it seems that there are two primary areas that where my body has stored a lot of it. One is my stomach, which probably partially explains a lot of the gut issues I’ve had over the course of my life where the trauma, stress, anxiety and fear that I’ve experienced from these big moments has been stored in my gut. We know interestingly that our Enteric Nervous System, our ENS, also affects our brain and our central nervous system.
The relation between our gut health, brain health, and emotions. Interestingly, as I do this somatic experience and get in touch with all the trauma I’ve held in my gut. It makes me think, all of these mental health challenges, depression and the things that I’ve been experiencing the past few years. As I heal my gut and as I physically release the energetic trauma in my body, it certainly has had a ripple effect. It’s almost like that domino effect. It’s not the stomach or the gut is this isolated environment that, “I’m going to heal that.” It has this domino effect that as we heal one thing, it has this ripple or domino effect where it’s going to heal other things. I truly believe that because we’re a symbiotic organism.
It’s interesting that as we learn more about ourselves and the human body, it’s going to take new modalities and new ways of thinking about healing. To your point, even if you have a reaction to this and going like, “They’re talking about drug use.” Certainly, things like somatic experiencing, yoga, holotropic breathing. There’s a pioneer of that called Stanislav Grof where it’s this intensely focused breathing technique that is intended to bring up and heal trauma. There are many ways for you, I believe, and all of us to heal ourselves and release trauma and get clear about who we are. We’re not here to condemn anybody’s methodologies. We’re here to share perhaps new avenues and new ways of things of thinking about it.
Let’s finish the edible story and then we’ll get into back to the main topic of Ayahuasca.
Several years ago, I misread the milligram dosage on the package of this raw vegan, organic macaroons.
Do they still exist?
I would have to think hard about what that brand is. I take way too many. The whole reason I took these was that I had a mountain of dishes and it was one of these things that were like, “I don’t want to do the dishes.” It’s such a harangue. I thought if I give myself a little bit of boost and getting a good feeling, I’ll be able to tackle these dishes, no problem. As I was 40 minutes into doing the dishes because there’s a lot of dishes and then it hits me and I was like, “I’m feeling good now.” It was like that thing of going up the roller coaster where you’re like, “This is feeling good, this is cool.” Once I was on, I realized that, “I did way too much.” There was a point where you wanted to come over, but I forgot you said, “Are you surprised?”
I think I called you and you said, “I’m high right now,” and I was concerned about you. That’s why I came over.
Through the shadowy glass of my front door, I saw a giant hat. I didn’t know it was Whitney and there was a knock at the door.
I thought that would be funny because I was wearing this black-rimmed hat. A stylish boho-chic hat that I got from Vaute Couture. It’s a great hat. The reflection of it looked like a sheriff’s hat. I knew that and thought it’d be fun to mess around with you. I think I knocked and I didn’t say anything. Jason came in the door and he was stunned.
Once I realized it was her, I was relieved but I wasn’t done yet. I kept getting more and more high to one point where I had to crawl to the bathroom to use it. As I was crawling out of the downstairs bathroom at my old loft, Clawdia and Lynx, my two original cats were looking at me like, “Dad, why are you crawling on the ground?” I could tell their energy responded to me like, “What are you doing?” That made it feel even worse because I’m like, “The cats are freaked out now. Everybody’s freaked out.”
You were upset about the helicopters. You thought there were helicopters swarming around.
I was paranoid. It was too much. I guess the lesson here is to make sure you’re doing your math right and don’t talk more than what you need. As we bleed into the Ayahuasca conversation into more details of the messages that came up for me, one of the big things I’ve realized is that when you do a psychedelics or entheogens, things that are opening your consciousness. If you have any control issues, it will bring them right to the forefront. There are only two choices when you’re doing a psychedelic plant medicine, you either resist or surrender. If there’s a part of you that’s like, “I want it to stop.” You can’t. You either resist or surrender. To me, I think the power of it is if we’re trying to micromanage our lives, control things and try and say, “This is an uncomfortable moment and I want it to end,” whatever plant medicine it’s like, “You’re in for the long haul.”
That happened to you. I don’t know if this is before or after he started talking about diarrhea in part one. I do recall you were sitting there. The shaman who looked like Jesus came over and he just was breathing with you. Let’s go back to diarrhea. You’re sitting there, you said that you went to the bathroom 6 to 8 times over the course of the night, and it wasn’t that unpleasant. It felt like a release. Every time you could smell the medication. I know when we left off you want to talk about child healing. I think that’s true, knowing you Jason well. You do bring up your childhood a lot and the trauma that you felt when your parents ended their relationship. Your dad left, that seemed to be a crucial moment. Was the medication when your dad was around?
It was and also after. I had severe childhood asthma to the point where I would stop breathing and a few times had to be rushed to the hospital because I wasn’t breathing.
Do you think that was any trauma-related issue?
I’ve thought about that because in my teen years in high school, asthma completely went away.
Which is possible that you grew out of it or it.
It’s true, but it’s fascinating to think about how does emotional trauma or emotional distress affects disease in the body? This is a massive subject that to unpack. Is it possible that for some reason my body chose to have a reaction to the trauma of the relationship with my dad? I don’t know that I’ve seen or been shown a direct link to that, but it’s a possibility. I’m sure.
You’re in the bathroom and you’re smelling the corticosteroids you took when you were a kid.
It’s a specific smell. I’m releasing throughout the night, over and over. Interestingly, I’m still on my psychedelic journey. I still see things.
Before we end the episode, can you talk about what you went through?
This physical release of diarrhea and letting go of what I perceive as these childhood drugs. It’s such a specific smell coinciding with still having these psychedelic visions. I’m not fully in the Earth’s reality.
What is the bathroom like when you’re having these psychedelic visions? Is the bathroom feel it’s like some different location? Are you conscious enough that you’re like, “This is the bathroom, this is the handle, this is the toilet seat, I remember how to go to the bathroom?”Love is the thread of reality. Click To Tweet
You have motor functions, skills, and awareness of special relationships. It’s not to the point where you’re incapacitated that for me, I couldn’t even get to the bathroom. It was challenging to get up off of my nest in my psychedelic state and having these visions and messages come through. Where it was like, “I want to be here receiving the messages and being in it.” My physical body is like, “You need to go to the bathroom right now.” It was mustering the energy to physically get up while I’m doing all of this emotional, spiritual processing and being on a raw primal level, your body needs to release. Let’s honor the psychedelic experience you’re having, but you also don’t want to poop your pants, so get to the bathroom. Its almost like coaching myself in the way of like, “Get up, put your hands on the feet and the floor. Rise and walk very slowly to the bathroom.” I was physically able to do it.
What if there had been someone else in the bathroom, what would you have done?
Go to a different bathroom. People are emotionally purging, screaming, laughing, and crying.
What was that like psychologically? You and I have been to those sound bath healings. Speaking of another way to heal, and it’s tough. When you’re in a room and a lot of people are emotionally releasing at the same time. It can be a little disturbing and psychologically. It can be jarring. It can be distracting. Did you find any of that with this experience?
I didn’t, and interestingly because at sound baths and sound healing, I have felt annoyed because I’m in my own state and then people are screaming, laughing processing raw, visceral releases. For some reason, I felt as if I was in a cocoon and hearing people vomit, hearing people scream and you’re hearing people moan, hearing people cry. It wasn’t disturbing for me.
You’re aware of it. I wonder how I feel about that.
I think the interesting thematic thread through was how much of the wounded, traumatized child within me needed to receive this experience. There were many signs and I didn’t go in expecting that. I had no expectation of what I was going to be shown or the visions or the messages. It was a blank slate. I don’t know what’s going to happen here. Aside from what I detailed and I don’t necessarily want to rehash the psychedelic visions or what I perceived the other-dimensional realities I went to that we shared in part one. The interwoven into that experience and the physical release were clear messages. When I say messages, it’s not as if there was the voice God or another being saying these things in my ear.
It was more like an intuitive set off a-ha moments that were being revealed internally to me. The childhood thing was interesting, not only because of the corticosteroids in the smell when I was having my physical release. A good friend of ours who invited me to the ceremony. She gifted me with this stuffed unicorn cat that I realized was the physical embodiment of Huckle the cat, which was my imaginary friend that I had as a kid. I believe as small children, we do have the perception of other realities and dimensional beings. “How cute. Jason has his imaginary friend.” I believe that I had some relationship to some nonphysical being. These childhood messages were fascinating. If we go way deep, and we’d go back into the trauma of my father leaving. I was young that I didn’t understand the dynamics of what was happening with my mom and dad.
As a young child, you don’t know about the physical abuse, the emotional abuse, the details and dynamics of your mom and dad’s relationship. You don’t have that information as a young child. What I did was I internalized in my young brain that everything was good before I came here. Mom and dad were together, they were traveling the world, they were happy, “Wait, what’s different? I’m here. That’s why he left. I’m the only difference.” Before I came, they were fine and they were great. My little childhood brain had created this association that I’m the reason. I’m not good enough or I’m a problem that mom and dad aren’t together anymore. I took that responsibility and beyond that, the deep fear of being abandoned by my dad was exacerbated of this thing like, “I need to prove I’m good enough because if I’m not good enough, then mom’s going to leave me too and then I’m going to be completely abandoned.”
This abandonment, not-enoughness, a fear mechanism was created subconsciously for me at a young age because I took responsibility for something I didn’t need to take responsibility for. Through that, especially in this Ayahuasca ceremony, I noticed that I have been trying to prove myself worthy of being loved my entire life. If I am making everyone in the room laugh, entertaining everyone, giving them a lot of value, holding healing space, showing up and being this shining, bright, shimmering character, people are laughing and they’re having fun with me or they deeply value me, then I’ll never be abandoned again. The deep thing that came up for me was everything you’ve been doing, there have been some element of you trying to prove yourself worthy of love. How toxic and painful that’s been with whatever aspect of my music, acting, food, speaking career. There’s been some subconscious motivation of I need to wow you, impress you, show you my value, so then I will be worthy of the love you give me. It’s been this transactional thing of me trying to prove myself because I’ve been afraid of being abandoned again or not having love in my life, which goes all the way back to the original abandonment scar of my father.Life is not asking us to prove our worthiness. Life is loving us no matter what. Click To Tweet
The message that came through to me was no matter what you’ve chosen in your life, even if you think you’ve made a wrong choice or you did bad, love has always been there. You’ve never needed to prove it. You’ve never needed to earn it from anyone. You’ve never needed to show your worthiness. I was reviewing all these moments in my life. Painful hard moments that I didn’t know how I would make it through and the medicine was so clear that you have been held in love through all of this. Even in the moments, you couldn’t see that was love. My question was why that love is? She said, “Because it was allowed.” It became clear to me at that moment that unconditional love is synonymous with allowing. If love is the thread of reality, which I believe that it is, some people call it God, universe, or spirit. Much like the sun shines on everyone, it shines on people with disabilities. It shines on murderers. It shines on rapists. It shines on the Dalai Lama. It shines on saints, the sun, the air, the water.
Life is not asking us to prove our worthiness or life is not deciding what is right and wrong. Life is loving us no matter what. That was the big message. You have nothing to prove. You have nothing to prove yourself worthy of. You don’t need to stop trying to get things from people. You have been loved and will be loved no matter what you choose. That was crystal clear. It’s been hard for me because I’ve been reviewing how much of what I’ve chosen to do. Pretty much my adult life has been, “I’ve got to get straight-A’s. I’ve got to be valedictorian. I’ve got to have a New York Times bestseller. I’ve got to be the first vegan chef in history on Food Network. I’ve got to have this. I’ve got to get the Tesla. I’ve got to have a big house.” It’s all been some element of I’m worthy of love. Look at me, look what I’ve done. I’m worthy of love now. Mom, I’m worthy of your love. Dad, I’m worthy of your love. Society, everyone. I’m worthy of your love now and it’s been exhausting, Whitney. I realize that’s been running as a script subconsciously for probably my entire life since that childhood, what a revelation.
To me, this doesn’t seem like anything. I’m not trying to diminish it at all, but I’m trying to get clear. I don’t think you’ve said anything that you didn’t already know. What was the difference? First of all, we all have the answers within us all the time. It’s a matter of if we’re conscious enough of them.
The big difference between this experience and talk therapy or other healing modalities that I’ve worked on for my mental and emotional health is that there’s a big chasm between intellectually grokking a concept. “Subconsciously, I’ve believed that I’m not enough and that I need to prove myself worthy of love. I’ll stop trying to prove that.” That’s an intellectual concept. This was a cellular integration of feeling in that ceremony that as I was crapping my brains out, crying and drooling all over. It’s this ugly, beautiful gross release of many emotions, fluids, and many ideas. I finally felt it in my body, not just as an intellectual concept. Whitney and I briefly talked about this that in healing and wellness, there’s a lot of this. It’s like, “Here are my five steps to unlock more energy. Here are my ten ways to have you feel better with your partner,” but we can read as many books, blog posts, podcasts as we want to, but to me, the great majority of it is these intellectual concepts that pass through our filter.
When we start to have a deep cellular experience of something that to me, the difference of the lessons and the wisdom is finally integrating into our being. There’s a massive chasm between like, “I know about that.” I’m going to teach you and position myself as an expert on that even though I haven’t lived the thing. I’m not saying this to condemn the influencers, coaches, or experts, but my frame around it is I hear what you are saying and you’re dispensing knowledge not having experienced or lived it. I’m looking at things radically different in terms of who’s dispensing advice, wisdom, courses, and teachings. I only say that because I had an intellectual grokking of my not-enoughness or my abandonment issues. In this experience, I was being held in energy and wisdom that was big and the magnitude of it was huge that I was crying. I had an experience in my body of no matter what I choose, I am being held in love. I was challenging it. No matter what you choose, you are loved. She was like, “Do you understand no matter what?” It was an experiential integration of this that was different than, “I get that. I read it in a book.” It’s substantively different and I’m trying to explain it as best I can.
You finish up this experience. How do you come out of it? Once you gain that awareness, that knowledge, tapping into yourself, is that was end cap and then you slowly start coming out of this space?
It’s a gradual experience in the sense that you don’t get snapped out of it right away.
Once you get this information, then what happened if you’re not snapped right out of it?
There are more layers to it. There are layers to the psychedelic portion of it where I talked about in part one where there are deeper layers of going into this other reality. With the lessons and the integration of this healing, it feels the same way. It’s not like, “You have these abandonment issues and not-enoughness and that’s been coloring your entire adult life.” Here’s how it’s shown up. Here are these moments where you thought you weren’t enough. Here are these things you are trying to do. It’s almost like a review of you where love. You didn’t need to prove that there and you were always worthy and you’ve always been worthy. We’re showing you so you can feel this. There were layers of revelation that I was experiencing in every part of this. When I say it was the longest night of my life, it felt like this evening was days long. The sun starts to come up, and I didn’t sleep for the entire evening. Some people slept, some people were fully awake. I don’t know that I couldn’t, I didn’t. In the morning it felt like the longest night of my life. When the sun started to come out, it was this like, “Here comes the sun. There’s the sun.” I felt exhausted physically and emotionally.
The other part of this ceremony was the day after Ayahuasca during the day you take San Pedro, which is a cactus. The idea is that the Ayahuasca is a feminine spirit energy plant medicine and San Pedro is masculine energy. It’s more of focusing, grounding, clarifying experience where Ayahuasca is all the stuff that you’re in pain about. Here it is, you’re loved. Can you see that? It’s a mother and father’s energy. It’s different. I felt like my experience with San Pedro, which was a ground-up. You mix it with water and it’s viscous and sludgy almost when you make chia pudding or a psyllium husk, you have to drink it right away or it’ll gelatinize. The San Pedro the following day is intended to bring the masculine spirit in, which is grounding like, “We’ve got you. We’re going to hold you in a firm, warm embrace of everything you went through. The craziness you experienced.”
I walk outside after I take the San Pedro and our group. I’m overlooking the hills, the trees, the plants, the mountains here and I could feel the trees and the plants were talking to me. It’s the vividness of their color and their movements. I had never been fully present to how vivid and beautiful the swaying and the movements of the trees where it’s like they’re dancing, they’re alive. How often I walk outside and I’m not even present to the alive notice of plant life. Even looking out at the lemon tree here, it’s like, “It’s moving.” It’s alive. There’s a life force in these things. They’re a tree. They’re a plant. San Pedro was like, “Look at the aliveness of life.” Everywhere you look, there’s life. Everywhere you look, there was allowing. Can you see the love in action in the world wherever you are?
At this point, have you come out of the feelings of the Ayahuasca? Is there an overlap? Does it go from one end to the other?
Yes, because San Pedro is a much slower, longer process than the Ayahuasca. The San Pedro was a slow build into the vividness of the colors, the sounds, the feelings of the plants, and the nature that I experienced. Whereas I mentioned Ayahuasca was like probably about 40, 45 minutes into it you’re in a different dimension. Whereas San Pedro was not a psychedelic experience. It was more like a sensory body perceptive opening. I didn’t see visions. It was tuning me into the subtleties of nature that were already present, but that in day-to-day life, we don’t pay attention too. Look at the life and the aliveness, the vibrancy, and the love that is around you all the time that you’re not even present to in your day-to-day life.No matter what you choose, you are loved. Click To Tweet
San Pedro was like a heart-centered thing where I did a lot of crying. Even more crying on San Pedro than I did on Ayahuasca because I felt like I was sitting with this overarching message of everywhere you look in the plants, insects, the spider on Whitney’s arm. Companion animals, in the suffering you’ve been through, the pain you’ve been through, love has always been there. It will always be there. I was laughing at myself because I’m like, “This is some crazy woo-woo thing,” but it wasn’t because it is my experience of life. When I hear Marianne Williamson talking about love in her campaign for the presidency and people like, “Yoga, colonics and love, Marianne, that’s what’s going to solve that.”
She’s on point, but a lot of people don’t want to hear it because I feel like love has been construed into something that we have minimized and have a reductive experience of love. Where it’s like, “Love is romantic. It’s Eros.” I love my dog, I love my car, but what she’s talking about is something that I finally had a direct cellular spiritual experience of, which everything is love truly. What she is saying as an example because she’s present with the presidential race. She gets some talks about love, like truly seeing each other as one. The generosity, compassion and care we extend to others is the same generosity, care, and compassion we extend to ourselves and how that will heal the fabric of humanity. She is on point and maybe people are jaded like, “Love will solve everything, Marianne.” No, we need prescription coverage.
She’s saying like, “Yes, I honor the fact that we need these things, but the intention behind it needs to be based in love, not fear.” It’s interesting at her as an example seeing how people are responding. I’m like, “Yes, this is real,” that if we come from a space of love in our business decisions, in our political actions, in the companies we choose to support with our money in how we conduct ourselves in relationships. I see love again as being synonymous with allowing, compassion and empathy. These values, if we learn how to tap into them and integrate them, they will change the world. I’m more clear on that than ever before. Even though we have war, violence, global warming, animal genocide and all the things that we have going on on this planet. I thought about this for a year, “If God’s spirit universe exists, why would they allow that to happen?”
If we’re talking about the fabric of this reality being love, it’s being allowed to happen so that we can learn from it and realize that no matter what we choose, it’s going to be hard for some people to grasp. It’s even strange for me even to say it because I wrestled with that question for years. How could God and the spirit allow such atrocities to exist? It showed me so clearly. All of these things you’re labeling as atrocities. Trump’s bad. Animal agriculture is bad. Global warming is bad. All these things are horrible. They’re being allowed to exist because unconditional love is allowing and if these things weren’t allowed to exist, it wouldn’t be unconditional. Even me saying it, it’s like, “I believe that.” I believe it and I believe that these painful, scary situations that we’re facing as a global society, as a global community, they’re there to teach us. They’re there to give us a choice. They’re there to say, “Do you want to keep choosing this?”
Love will be there. As the world is burning, love is there and it’s almost as if there’s an omnipresent force that is saying, “We’re not going to stop any of this because that would be conditional.” We’re going to allow all of it to exist simultaneously because maybe love, God, spirit universe is also growing and expanding and learning through us and our experiences. Maybe we’re all here because we’re all part of some cosmic play whereas the universe, as love, as spirit, we’re all connected to each other. As we learn and grow and dissolve into more love, that’s contributing to the collective. This was the first time Whitney, that I had a direct experience of oneness. It’s not some BS woo-woo hippy concept. It’s like, “This is real.” We are in this together. No doubt.
What’s interesting is in how to change your mind, Michael Pollan says, “Human beings have a natural desire to shift their consciousness.” It’s interesting going back to what you were saying in the beginning, we are reprimanded for trying to shift our consciousness. There are many stigmas against drinking, drugs, sex, pleasure, meditation, yoga, all these different things. There are many different opinions on it, whether you see it right or wrong, woo-woo or acceptable, whatever frame you have around it. It’s almost like human beings have this strong desire to shift their consciousness and better understand themselves and get deeper. A lot of people are raised in environments where they’re shamed for it or where they see it as something that’s wrong. You talking about this, it’s compelling because if more people had an opportunity to experience a shift in consciousness, whether it’s through drugs or not.
You wonder how much that would change the way that we relate to each other. How much the way that we show up, the way that we feel about ourselves. I’ve often thought that not allowing people to shift their consciousness or discouraging people from shifting their consciousness is a control mechanism. If they, whoever you perceive they being, whether it’s the government or whatever, if you keep somebody thinking the way that you want them to think, then you have control over them. Whereas as human beings, we can shift into different ways of thinking, which is harder to control, but yet has greater effects on harmony and peace in this world.
I think too there is something to be said about that. This shows up in a lot of different spiritual text, religious and spiritual teachings, but this idea of dying before we die. Seeing it in the Toltecs, the Mayans, the Aztecs. This idea of the death of the ego. When I say die before you die, it’s not death and physical resurrection. One of the other big lessons of the experience I had was when I say you, the medicine is communicating to me. You’ve been concerned with this idea of earning love, being worthy of love, of what you call yourself or the title you’ve assigned yourself, “I’m a celebrity chef, I’m a TV host, I’m a bestselling author, I’m a this, I’m a that.” Her whole thing was like, “It doesn’t matter.”
We talked about that in another episode about how we label ourselves.
This was as a direct experience of, “It doesn’t matter.” If you don’t want to be a chef, don’t be a chef. You don’t have to do anything to prove yourself worthy of love over and over. It was like, “Do you get this?”
When you bring that up, it all comes down to worthiness and a love thing. I think a lot of people don’t realize that because they see it through the lens of needing to make money. That’s such a huge core because money’s tied to survival. I know you, as Jason Wrobel, want to stop calling yourself a chef, but there are times where you call yourself a chef to make money. What is your perspective on that after this? Money is about love, but it still feels in the world that we live in, we can’t be like, “Money’s just love. Don’t worry about it.” We live in a society where we basically need money to get by.
When she said it doesn’t matter, she wasn’t communicating it in a destructive nihilistic way. It was like, “Do you want to call yourself a chef? Great. You don’t want to? Great.” You’re not identified with that thing. You can call yourself whatever you want, but you, your essence, your eternal you, that easiness that you are, the spirit, the soul that you are, it doesn’t matter. Call yourself whatever you want. It doesn’t matter. You’ve been a copywriter, you’ve been a warehouse worker, you’ve been a box truck driver, you’ve been the grill guy at Wendy’s. No matter what the eternal you do not change, so it doesn’t matter. The thing to your point is I have been looking at my intuition and my integrity more so than anything. You and I talked about a business situation that a lot of colleagues and acquaintances are doing. Some of them are making a ton of money. It’s an MLM, which is Multi-Level Marketing. Previously known as a pyramid scheme.
MLM and pyramid schemes are slightly different.
Yes, they are but I believe that the pyramid schemes gave way to, “We need to structure this differently,” and they became MLMs.
There’s someone at the top and that person enrolls somebody and they’re always making money.
In this particular case, I do know who that is and they’re making money off of everyone and they make millions of dollars every year. More power to them. My point in this is rather than getting hung up on like, “Jason Wrobel, he’s the celebrity vegan chef or cooking channel host or author,” whatever people want to call me, whatever the bio says. It’s disidentifying with that defining me, which gives me the freedom to choose what I want. I know it doesn’t define me. That was the message that I got. The deeper thing with it is that I want to do things that are in integrity that feel good in my heart and my gut. With this opportunity, this MLM thing, it was like, “Yes, this is right up your alley. It’s got all these products and superfoods. All this money you’re going to make. Look at what this person did, look at what they did and money.”
When I drove into how people were structuring the marketing, the outreach, how to recruit customers and how to do it, there was a lot of it that didn’t feel right to me. I checked in with my heart. I checked in with my gut and the response of some people was like, “That’s your edge and you’re not willing to push past it. Where else in your life do you not freeze up and not take action?” I was like, “No, that’s not what’s happening here. I’m paying attention with my gut and my heart is telling me.” My heart is saying this doesn’t feel right. I battled with myself with it for a while because it was like, “All these people are making all this money.”Unconditional love is allowing and if bad things weren't allowed to exist, it wouldn't be unconditional. Click To Tweet
I believe because I’ve done this before and I’ve taken clients and I’ve taken brand deals and done business deals that I knew didn’t feel right, but I did it for the money. There are energetic consequences that are paid when you choose something that your body and your being are saying “Do not do this,” and you choose it anyway. It doesn’t mean you’re not held in the space of love. When I say consequences, I don’t mean that there’s a punitive God or that the energy of the universe is going to punish you. I believe that we are the universe. We are God, we are love. We are all that is in this form and there are energetic repercussions to be paid when we willfully choose to ignore our intuition. We willfully choose to ignore the voice inside that is saying “Do not do this. This isn’t for you,” but I need money and scarcity, fear and lack.
I’m saying it because I’ve done it so much, but I’m aware that by listening to my heart and listening to my intuition and that higher voice, I will always be led exactly where. Even if I don’t choose it, we’re still being led to where we need to be. I don’t have a desire to pay the energetic consequences of choosing something that my heart is telling me not to do. I didn’t want to pay those prices anymore. It doesn’t mean I might not do it again. I’m human and I’m liable to screw up, but I feel the clarity I received through this ceremony was like, “You always know the answer.” Even if it’s buried behind lots of fear and lots of lack consciousness and you feel like you have to scrape and claw and fight for everything in your life and prove your worthiness, you don’t need to do that anymore.
I’m sure a lot of people reading are resonating with that because, especially with social media, which is probably how a lot of people found this show. A lot of people are reading that have known one or both of us, Whitney and Jason and see us through the lens of YouTube, Instagram, Facebook and all these other platforms. It’s interesting because if that’s the case, then these people are spending a lot of time on social media. Social media is this fascinating world where we compare our lives to one another. There are many feelings of not good enough and comparison. If only I had this or that. Even though we can know on a surface level that that stuff doesn’t matter, it ties into this deeper feeling as you’ve described.
It’s triggering old emotions and thought patterns and it’s challenging to navigate a lot of those emotions. One of the reasons we feel like titles, material objects, experiences, numbers and all these other things, we start to think that those matter because in a way they do matter on a superficial level. It’s because somebody looks at your number. If you hear enough people say, “This is Jason Wrobel. He has 40,000 Instagram followers.” Somebody says that over and over again. When you drop below 40,000 Instagram followers, you wonder, “Am I not going to get the same introduction anymore? People are not going to care anymore.”
I have two thoughts I want to interject. I went to an integration ceremony with the shaman, the facilitators, the psychotherapist and the people that were present. Not everyone was there, but quite a few from the Ayahuasca ceremony to integrate from the ten days since the ceremony. What have we been experiencing? What have we been feeling? All of these things. One of the attendees there, because I had found her on Instagram and wanted to connect, when I saw her, she’s like, “Thanks for the follow on Instagram. I didn’t know you were a celebrity.” Earnestly, she wasn’t saying it to mess with me. She said like, “You have a lot of followers.” I didn’t recoil, but I also didn’t feel good about the statement.
I looked at her and I said, “What does that even mean?” She laughed. I said, “What does celebrity even mean? That’s such a strange thing to say.” She’s like, “Yes, but you have 40,000 followers.” I said, “Yes, but would that make me famous?” I wasn’t doing it to take her task. I wanted to engage in an interesting conversation with her about perception because I don’t perceive myself that way. Celebrated by whom? I said to her like, “There are people in our lives that celebrate us no matter what. There are people that probably look to you as a celebrity in your field.” It was a fascinating thing for her to say. I didn’t feel good about it. I didn’t feel bad about it. I observed it and went, “Celebrity, what does that even mean?” Why do we feel the need to be like, “You’re famous?” I’ve had people say that. Meet people at parties and they’ll look at the soda and like, “Mr. Big Shot.” I’m like, “It’s not why I’m doing it.”
On the other hand, you can be around people with hundreds, thousands, millions of followers and then you feel that way about them. It’s weird.
It’s like this. To generalize in the Western world, in the US but especially in Los Angeles where we are, there is dramatic importance placed on external things. How we look, the car we drive, where we live, the zip code we’re in, who we’re dating, what gluten-free bread are you buying from the market? There are a million different things that people use to be like, “Pay attention to me. I’m worth something. I’m valuable.” That microscope is even greater here in Los Angeles. It’s the perfect place to sort out all of these externalized values that we think define us and think we make us who we are, only to realize that none of those things is anything about who we are.
All of the reasons I came to Los Angeles in the first place many years ago, which was, “I’m going to be famous. I’m going to use my fame, my talent to spread messages of importance and healing. I’m going to do better than my dad did and prove that I’m better than him, so I can prove my worthiness to the world and my family and my mom by coming to LA.” I realize that the years I’ve been in Los Angeles have been about me healing myself and getting to realize that TV series, book, tour, fame, all that stuff everyone’s chasing has nothing to do with who I am. I think one of the things I feel adamant about in all of the celebrities that have taken their lives over the past decade that continues to happen is that we’ve all been sold the idea and we’ve talked about this in different forms.
I get the perfect house in the perfect zip code. I’ll say for myself, I get the orange McLaren. I date this person that I want to date. I get the right clothes, I get the white right watch. I get all these things on my list that I’ve ticked off and I will have proven how good of a person I am. I’m worthy of love. I’m worthy of celebrity. I’ve proven to my parents and my family, it was all worth it. The struggle was all worth it. “Look, I made it.” Only to realize that on the other side of it, no one cares and that knowing feeling inside of yourself doesn’t go away. People are like, “I’d rather cry in a McLaren than a Yugo.” Yes, but you’re still crying because of the pain, the suffering and deep anguish you’ve experienced in your entire lifestyles had been dealt with.
Where did you hear that phrase?
I heard it many times.
First of all, what’s a Yugo?
It’s a car from the ‘80s that you can’t buy anymore. People usually say, “I’d rather cry in a BMW than a bicycle.” In this case, I’d rather cry in a McLaren than a Yugo. It’s an extreme example. We’re still in this mode of external proving everything and it’s weird. I’ve been to parties since the experience and I’ve been out with people. I’m not only observing how I’m engaging with other humans, but without judgment, observing how people conduct themselves in social situations. It’s clear to me how much people’s behavior is motivated by, “Look at me, I’m important and worthy of love.” I see it clearly and I have deep compassion because I’ve acknowledged it in myself, so I see it in others.
I know it’s coming from a place of people who want to be loved. The fancy car in the house, the big boobs and the big biceps, whatever the things, it’s a cry for love. Love me. I’m important. I’m special. Look at me. I have compassion for it because I realized how much of myself has been operating in that wavelength for so long. You know how car-obsessed I am, all the things I’ve been buying. The material things I’ve been wanting and I know since that experience of love, I’m like, “Who cares?” If that wants to happen someday, cool. If it doesn’t, cool. The weight I put on those things feels like it’s dissolved in a way.
What’s interesting to what you’re saying and reflecting on all of this is that it’s a simple thing. The lesson that you’ve heard is you don’t have to do anything to be loved. You’re loved as you are. If that’s the answer to many people’s problems, yet people spend their entire lives and maybe never fully realize that. They struggle their entire lives through that and pass away and continue to struggle. It’s fascinating to me why it’s complicated, but I think those part of the mysteries of being a human being is why are things hard.
That’s the big question, but perhaps it’s a combination of things. Perhaps it’s because we’re bombarded with messages in our society from the media that this is what a happy life looks like and it’s what we grew up with. You need to get straight A’s, hit the game-winning shot, get into the right Ivy league school, whatever the thing is that maybe our family or parents told us would make us happy and fulfilled. I think some of the messages are externalization.If you can extend unconditional love to other people, maybe you'll begin to believe that you can be loved unconditionally too. Click To Tweet
All of that stuff has reinforced more than what you’re saying. I think as human beings, whatever we experience, hear, and witness over and over again, that becomes our norm. To your point, Marianne Williamson is sticking out so much in this political campaign because she’s the only one talking about love where a lot of people are rejecting that because that’s not the norm. Maybe these simple things and messages about love are harder for people to understand and to grok, simply because it’s not the norm. I think that’s true of most things. We go towards what seems easiest, convenient, familiar and anything that feels hard, uncomfortable, unfamiliar. Even if we know that it could be better for us, we tend to push ourselves away. You’ve said a lot, you’ve dropped a lot of wonderful pieces of wisdom from your experiences. Is there anything else that you would like to leave the audience with?
It can be radically uncomfortable to think about extending unconditional love, acceptance and compassion to someone who worships differently than us, believes in something different than us, has a different sexual orientation, who chooses to live their life differently, to eat differently and has different political viewpoints. It’s extremely uncomfortable to think about extending on conditional love, compassion, and acceptance to those kinds of people. It is against what we’ve been conditioned to do, which is you’re like me, therefore you’re safe. I can relax into loving you and extending compassion and acceptance because you’re like me.
The thing that Marianne and many other people, and the thing I’m finally having a direct experience of, is the real work. It’s to sit across the table from someone who may be angry by your presence, who may think worship, eat, vote, want different things than you. Look at that person deeply in the eyes and say like, “I’m going to extend unconditional love, compassion, and understanding and listen to this human being.” If we can move past our radical discomfort in attempting to do that with other people who are different than us, if we can lean deeply into that discomfort and to extend unconditional love and understanding, that is going to be a mechanism to heal this planet deeply.
Ourselves too because if you can extend unconditional love to other people, maybe you’ll begin to believe that you can be loved unconditionally. It doesn’t mean that you’re going to get back what you put out, but it does help you believe that it’s possible.
It’s simple but not necessarily easy. Thank you for reading. Thank you for receiving this communication unlike anything I’ve ever shared in my career and on this show. Tremendous gratitude for you, Whitney, opening the space to have this conversation and the audience for having an open mind and open heart and being a fan of this show. We appreciate you.
You can find information about what we’ve talked about. You can find ways to contact us or our social media. You can leave comments. You can do everything over at Wellevatr.com. We’d love to hear from you publicly or privately. You can email us, you can drag to message us, you can post on our Instagram or on the comment section. We see this community as a two-way conversation. We’d love to have you part of that conversation. Please reach out, whichever way feels right to you and we look forward to that. Thanks for reading and we’ll see you in the next episode, which will be about something else uncomfortable. Who knows what that will be, but it is sure to be interesting.
- How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan
- Johns Hopkins Center For Psychedelic & Consciousness Research
- Enteric Nervous System
- Vaute Couture
- Marianne Williamson
- iTunes – This Might Get Uncomfortable Podcast
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