MGU 256 | Response To Failure


The way we respond to failure and criticism depends in large part on how big our ego is. Have you ever spoken in front of an audience and just feel like someone isn’t listening? That feeling is your ego talking and it’s best to ignore it. There could be so much different factors as to why they are doing that. Maybe something urgent happened and people have to walk out of your talk. You need to understand that not everything you do and say is as important as you think it is. Maybe your audience heard that speech two days ago. You have to learn how to deal with those things. Come in with the right expectations and always bring your A-game in this episode with Jason Wrobel and Whitney Lauritsen.

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When You Do Your Best And Still Fall Short – How To Respond To Criticism And Failure

What To Do When You Do Your Best And Fall Short

I came back from a trip. I’ve taken two trips together but I’ve been to multiple places. This is a time that I’ve been anticipating for a while. It feels like a big deal because these trips were the reason that I decided to get vaccinated. I wanted to protect myself. I have to say, in hindsight, I’m glad that I did that because it felt almost like normal life again. Being around people, going places and not wearing a mask was refreshing in a way. Although I’m at this point now, and things keep changing the world. I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re required to wear masks again. I’m starting to hear that. Part of me hopes that I didn’t inadvertently expose myself to COVID and get a little too trusting.

Anyways, that’s not my point. My point is that I went on two trips and had a lovely time. One of the trips was with my sister. One of the trips was for business. I also got to see our friends, Toni and Michelle, authors of the book, The Friendly Vegan Cookbook. Toni has a few other books but this is Michelle’s only book. Amazing book, amazing people. We got our nails done together. We went to this eco-friendly place that has vegan, natural nail polish. I haven’t had a manicure and pedicure for who knows how long. We hung out and went shopping. We recorded a video, which I don’t know when that’s coming out, but it’ll be on the World of Vegan YouTube channel. We taste-tested a bunch of foods, which is fun.

MGU 256 | Response To Failure

Response To Failure: Electronic devices have been crafted to manipulate you. It does it on a level to get you to have good and bad behavior. You will then do something that benefits somebody else.


A side note about food is that I’ve been back on the keto diet for myself. I am excited about doing it again. I started experimenting with vegan keto a few years ago. It was either in July or August 2018. It made me feel good that I ended up writing a book about it, The Vegan Ketogenic Diet Cookbook. When that book came out in February 2020, I was working my way towards not eating keto. I have to say that I’ve noticed a drastic difference. I feel a lot better. As I’ve been exploring my brain and learning more about it, I’m getting evaluated for ADHD. I will report back on that. I’ve been thinking a lot about how to support myself and whether or not I would be open to taking medication.

One thing I was curious about is one of the huge benefits of the ketogenic diet, which is a low-carb, moderate protein, high-fat diet. There’s a lot of research about the benefits for the brain. One of my favorite books about it is by Dr. Mercola. He has this great book called Fat for Fuel. That was one of the best that I read. It came out in 2017, a little bit before I started the keto diet. When I read that, I was amazed at all the research that he’s been doing because keto can get a bad rap. By the way, this episode is not about keto. This is setting the stage for a number of things I want to share in this episode but this is worth mentioning as a personal side.

This book gets into the metabolic benefits of a low-carb, high-fat diet. I’m curious whether there are benefits for somebody like me that has trouble focusing. I struggle with dopamine as many people do. That’s part of what I want to talk about in this episode. I’ve been reflecting a lot on how my brain works and how other people’s brains work. As I was driving up to Northern California, where I went to Sacramento to see Toni and Michelle. I then went to Napa to speak at a conference, I was listening to a phenomenal book called Stealing Fire. I’ll share a little bit about that in this episode, and perhaps more later in another episode.

It got me thinking about my brain and about things like Adderall and Ritalin which could possibly be prescribed to me if I do get diagnosed with ADHD. I have been thinking, “Would I want to take those if it’s recommended to me by the psychiatrist?” I feel open to it but I don’t have much knowledge. One thing I’d like to dive into more is, what are the side effects? What are the long-term elements that I should be considered?

Support your weaknesses so you can better thrive. Click To Tweet

Generally, I avoid drugs and even vaccines for the most part because I feel like I don’t need them. I generally do not put something in my body unless I feel like I either want it or need it. I’m curious, are there dietary changes I can make to support my brain? I hadn’t thought about this in a while but I remember when I did the keto diet, when I first started, I had a lot more energy. That’s one of the big benefits of it in addition to weight loss. To me, one of the reasons I’ve decided is that I put on some weight during COVID, as a lot of people did. I feel uncomfortable in my body. Generally speaking, I was eating so much processed food. I was eating a lot of foods that inflamed my body. What I found in my experiences with keto is it brought down my inflammation. A lot of the perceived weight that I gained was my body being more bloated and puffier. That’s because I have a lot of food sensitivities.

I’m curious not just how keto can affect the way I look and how the way I feel physically, but my energy has felt low and my brain function has not been optimal. Through studying the work of Dr. Mercola, he gets into all of the brain health benefits of a high-fat diet because many people have found that high-fat diets are beneficial to the brain. I’m wondering because part of the reason I feel good when I eat a high-fat diet is because I struggle with some of these brain-related challenges. I looked it up and found a few articles or some anecdotal evidence but apparently, there hasn’t been a ton of study or research done on whether a keto diet is good for ADHD. Some of the research I found was mainly done on children. ADHD tends to be something that we think about for kids. That tends to be when people get diagnosed. It came up in the Stealing Fire book.

I listened to two audiobooks on my road trip. The other one is great. It’s called Bored and Brilliant. One of them mentioned a man that had discovered that he had adult-onset ADHD, which is fascinating. I’m very ignorant about that. I haven’t heard that term. I thought that some adults like myself can be diagnosed with it later in life because it was never looked at before. Some people believe that it comes on later in life. That’s an interesting part of this puzzle too.

Once I get evaluated, I’ll have more information. If I do have ADHD, is this something that I’ve always had or is it something that came on later in life? Is this something that got triggered by part of my adult life? All of these things are a big mystery and fascinating to me. They’ve led me to examine my behavior and my eating style. It’s simultaneously overwhelming and exciting. I’m sure, Jason, you can relate to as you go figuring out your own mental health. Do you feel that way, simultaneously overwhelmed but excited like when you’re doing detective work?

MGU 256 | Response To Failure

Response To Failure: When teaching, the only responsibility you have is to speak the truth and give as much value and support as you can. The idea of focusing on outcomes is dubious.


I don’t know if excited is the right way to characterize it. Having my curiosity satisfied is probably more of an accurate assessment of how I feel about it. Overwhelmed, confused and then having my curiosity satisfied. For me and probably for you too, Whitney, it seems like one big experiment where we’re trying different things and assessing how they’re working for us. I don’t know how I would characterize my excitement more than like, “That experiment worked,” or “That experiment failed.” Maybe I’m going about it in a much more clinical way.

It is a big exploration and I consume so much information. Sometimes I don’t process it out loud as much. That’s one of the big benefits of the show. It’s to share your thoughts. I find that I have conversations that help me process. This is one of the major reasons that I enjoy having a podcast. Talking about things helps me better understand them. If I don’t talk about them and I just consume the information, then it fades away over time.

That leads me to this interesting experience I had. I spoke at an event. I did two talks. My first one, I crafted it inspired by a lot of things I’m talking about. My big passion, not just for myself but to help others, is to support our weaknesses so that we can better thrive. That’s what that book, Bored and Brilliant, is about. There was an excerpt of that book that I read. It was something related to technology. A little section in the book is encouraging people to be off their devices more, as we’ve talked about a lot on the show.

Also, specifically about how boredom can lead to brilliance and how many of us are uncomfortable being bored. The book is research-heavy but it’s also based on her experience running a challenge called Bored and Brilliant. It was so successful that she wrote this book about it and backed it up with all this data, and dug into the history of boredom, how we avoid boredom, how boredom feels uncomfortable, and how boredom seems such a negative thing. She’s explaining how boredom is important and a great thing for us. I love that.

My fascination with our human behavior often comes up, not just on the show but in a lot of my work. I find this as a coach when I do specifically social media coaching, but well-being coaching. It comes up in our courses. It comes up in my presentation. I noticed when I went to this event that I spoke at. Before I spoke, I was sitting in the audience, and many attendees there were on devices. I hadn’t started Bored and Brilliant yet. I was almost done with Stealing Fire. I was immersed in this book.

Technology interrupts us more than it supports us. Click To Tweet

Stealing Fire, for context, is about altered states, ecstasy, and how human beings are often drawn to changing their state so that they can feel more pleasure or they can better understand themselves for religious reasons, for spiritual reasons. It’s a phenomenal book if you’re interested in all of those. It touches upon things like Adderall and Ritalin and their effect on us. They touch upon psychedelic drugs, alcohol, sex and dancing, and all of these different facets of our life in which we seek out pleasure. We are trying to change our state so we can feel better. Somehow, we can tap into a deeper side of ourselves.

As I was listening to Jason, I’m like, “Not only does this sound like things that I seek out all the time, but the number of people that I’ve met over the years that are into this.” Jason, I haven’t told you this, but there’s a lot of talk about Burning Man, and it helped me understand Burning Man to a level I’d never thought of before. I didn’t realize how Burning Man deeply transforms people. I always thought it was a place that you would go to have a good time for a week and escape reality. I didn’t realize that people use it to get to alter their consciousness on a semi-permanent level. A lot of people in the technology space, including Elon Musk, have gone and encouraged their teams to go transform the way that they do business and think differently. Google has a foundation there. I wish that I had gone earlier but I’m extra curious about it.

Anyway, that’s a side note. Here I am, immersed in this book, thinking about the brain, consciousness, our desire for pleasure, aware because of so much of the research that I do and how technology interrupts us more than it supports us. I’m specifically talking about computers and phones and the devices that we use to connect to one another and get information. It’s beautiful. They’re convenient but as human beings, because we don’t have a ton of self-awareness, it’s hard to have self-awareness because these devices and the software on them that we use has been crafted to manipulate us. Sometimes on a level to get us to have good behavior or on a level to encourage “bad” behavior so that we will do something that benefits somebody else. Oftentimes, it’s financial-driven. How long can you stay on an app until that app can show you advertisements so that the app will make more money? We know this about social media.

What can we do to manipulate you into buying something? If you’ve ever downloaded a freemium app and it’s free, but there are extra levels that you can unlock if you pay for it? I’m using several of those. They’re great on the free level and they’ll continuously advertise like, “If you spend $3, you’ll get this feature. If you sign up for a monthly membership service, you’ll get that feature.” I don’t even know if I want it but sometimes, the advertisements are good at tapping into our desires, needs and manipulating us. I’m fascinated by how that works because I want to feel like I’m mostly in control of my life. When I study things like this, I am like, “How much am I driven to do things I don’t even recognize that I’m being manipulated to do?”

Even on this show, I’m sitting here talking about this. I’m using a webcam and a computer. I’ve got my phone next to me. We’re using technology to communicate with each other, me and Jason to communicate with you. I’ll get on these thought processes where I’m like, “Why am I doing the podcast? Is a podcast for me? Is it for Jason? Is it for the two of us? Is it for the listener?” I’ll start reflecting and getting deeper. A lot of the time, I realized that I make a lot of surface-level decisions or it’s an unconscious drive to do things. This is part of my deep curiosity. This comes out a lot in my work.

Going back to this conference, I was sitting there observing how many people were using their devices during the talks. The attendees, in general, from what I understand, were paid a good amount of money. This is a business conference. They pay this money and they’re spending all this time to sit in a room, not even post-COVID because COVID is still going on. They’ve probably been vaccinated because no one was wearing masks. I’m hoping that they were all at least being safe. They’re making this big decision to be there from multiple levels for their health, time and money.

To me, those are all important factors. If you’re going to do anything that involves that, then you should take it seriously. I think when people go to conferences, they intend on that. When somebody goes to an event, a lot of times, they are driven by socializing. If you’re going to sit down and listen to a speaker, deep down, you have a desire to reach some goal. For me, when I’m speaking on stage or even when I’m coaching one-on-one or in a group setting, I am committed and almost obsessed with getting somebody an outcome. I feel like a failure if I don’t get somebody an outcome. If I’m going to set an expectation, I’m going to do my best and do everything I’m capable of to get that outcome. There’s a certain point at which they have to take responsibility. When you’re teaching somebody, you have a responsibility. Do you agree, Jason? Do you feel that when you’re teaching, coaching or speaking?

MGU 256 | Response To Failure

Response To Failure: One of the biggest undoings people have is thinking that everything you do is going to be successful and praise-worthy.


The only responsibility I feel is to do the best job I can to communicate what I feel is going to be of benefit to them. The outcome isn’t up to me. This is a tricky thing because in the coaching world, and all of that, there’s a lot of promises of, “I’ll 10X your income and I’ll get you 10,000 new subscribers.” It’s a slippery slope. The only responsibility we have is to speak the truth, give as much value and support as we can. For me, the idea of outcome or focusing on outcome is dubious. I don’t personally like to focus on it anymore.

I see what you’re saying there. To be clear, I know that the outcome that students, including the people who are reading, is out of my hands. I also believe that there is a way in which we can guide them to our best abilities to the outcome they’re hoping for, and then they have to take the steps from there. It’s like leading someone to a path. It’s a good metaphor because I’m fascinated in general with structure. I know that saying something like that throws people off but sometimes it’s okay to throw people off when I present. Generally, I don’t, unless I have a strong point.

My major point here is that I’m at this conference, and I’m thinking about how I can best support the audience because that’s what I love to do. I want to get to know people. I want to see where they’re struggling and what they’re challenged with. I want to do my best to help them so that they can leave feeling empowered. I feel like that’s a huge part of my role. Speakers are there to inspire you and to entertain you. Sometimes to educate you, in most cases. I know what it’s like to see someone and be fully drawn into what they’re saying and then leave feeling on fire and ready to do something. That’s usually why I go to a talk.

When I’m at a conference, I will look at the agenda and I will say, “This piques my interest because I want to get XYZ outcome and this person could help me,” like when somebody would sign up for a course or whatever. I observe the audience and I think, “How can I support them?” After listening to that book, Stealing Fire, thinking about technology and social media a lot, and how easily distracted we are these days, what I wanted to do is to help them focus. I set up focus music that we talked about in the past episode. It is along the lines of binaural beats and it’s designed that when you listen to it, it impacts you and stimulates your brain. I had that music playing subtly during my whole talk which brought me excitement.

One thing I developed alongside Jason a few years ago is after reading some books about TED Talks, it was recommended that you have a sensory experience for people. If you can tap into as many senses as possible, people will be engaged and stimulated. They will also have a better chance of remembering what you said, especially if they’re using their devices. Jason and I did a talk and we centered it around all senses. We passed out chocolates or something. What do we do for the taste, Jason? Was it chocolate?

We did chocolate for the taste portion of it. You also did essential oils and then you did textured stones for them to do for the touch portion.

We have the visuals of us, speaking, and then the sound. We played music too. We did a little meditation. I would have loved to do that. There were at least 100 people in the audience, which is awesome but a lot of people. I didn’t plan far enough in advance to do those things. It’s awesome because not only does it help people pay attention but it makes people feel cared for. I recognize that something else that I enjoy.

When I’m socializing, especially these days, we haven’t socialized in such a long time. Most of us, generally speaking. I personally had not done anything and I hadn’t been around that many people in so long. It feels good to feel cared for and experience human connection. A lot of the time, people go through the motions and speakers make it about them sometimes. They’re on stage to get your attention and validation. They’re on stage to share what they know but they’re not tuned into how it’s making people feel. For better or for worse, I’m deeply empathetic and I’m always concerned with how people feel.

I got up there and crafted my entire talk around that. I encourage the audience to not use their devices. I wasn’t sure how that was going to go. Also, Jason, in that same talk that we did about the senses, which wasn’t about the senses. It was about the well-being of social media and we were talking about how well-being is tied into business. We had a small group of ten people and we asked all of them to be off their devices so that they could focus on their well-being. One guy got upset when we asked him to do that, that he walked out of the room. How did you feel at that moment, Jason?

To be honest, I was, “Screw him. You don’t want to be here, don’t be here. We put a lot of work into this.” My attitude at the moment was, “Okay, bye.” To be quite honest, it didn’t emotionally affect me because I had no investment in him as a person. His attitude, in general, was detached and aloof. I remember, during the course of that whole weekend experience, my perception of him was that he was in this mode. I’m seeing his face now too. I recall my impression of him throughout that weekend was, “I’m a tough guy who knows it all.” He had this aura about him. When he left the room, I’m like, “Screw off. I don’t want you here anyway.”

It’s funny how different we are because I started crying in the middle of our presentation, not in an uncontrolled way, but I was using my feelings as an example of vulnerability. That’s part of another tactic for presentations and not a tactic like a manipulation way technically, but a connection tactic. When you show that you’re vulnerable, people lean in. I remember I thought, “I have an opportunity here to hide my feelings. Suck it up and pretend it doesn’t feel that way, or I could share with the audience that I’m feeling emotionally impacted by somebody.”

Meditation is the most powerful way to change your state of mind without using anything else. Click To Tweet

Acknowledging that is a key thing. This is something else you can do if you are nervous about public speaking, it’s recommended that you say so. What happens is the audience feels empathy for you. That creates a deeper connection and can make a bigger impact and they will pay more attention to you. If you’re feeling something, you don’t need to hide it when you’re on stage. A lot of people have this perception that they have to pretend to be otherwise. I don’t believe in that.

Anyway, in that talk with Jason, I teared up after that guy left the room. I thought it was important to acknowledge it. Once we acknowledge it, we could move on from it and that there wasn’t the elephant hanging in the room. In my talk, I thought to myself ahead of time, “It’s common during conferences when people leave the room.” I was prepping myself mentally like, “I’m not going to get offended if people leave the room,” and a few people did. I remember thinking to myself, “I wish I could know, did they leave the room because of me and my talk or did they leave the room for some other reason? Should I take this personally or not?”

Technically, it’s not beneficial to take it personally but I thrive on feedback. I’ve also noticed over the years as I’ve started adding in these more untraditional ways of presenting, I don’t know how people feel. Sometimes I feel like they’re surprised at it. I’m that outlier who add in some more interaction and some more connection. There’s a deeper sense of this, Jason. I’m doing that and my aim was I want to help these people focus because these people are at this conference spending all this money. They’re drawn to their devices because many of us have that habit. We’re looking for dopamine.

This is one of the main reasons that I’ve heard in my research that people use devices when they are uncomfortable. Let’s say you walk into a party and you don’t know anyone there, it’s tempting to go to your phone because you can tap out. It’s like we’re using them as teleportation devices, “I’m uncomfortable. I’m going to teleport to someplace that’s more comfortable. I’m going to go into my zone. I’m going to create this protective bubble around me because when I’m on my phone, there’s less chance someone’s going to come to talk to me.”

If we ask ourselves, “Why did we go to an event in the first place?” We’re not going there to be on our devices. We’re going there to learn, network and connect. I feel a responsibility or I’ve chosen to feel a responsibility as a presenter to remind people of that but do it in a subtle way. I crafted my presentation. I asked people, “Did you know that you’ll process the information more if you’re off of your device? In fact, you have a pad of paper here where you can write down notes instead of on a device, and that’ll help you retain memory.” When I said that, I noticed all these people putting their devices away. Some of them may have done it because they felt obligated but to a lot of people, it was a cue like, “Over here.”

I then engage the audience by asking them questions, not just for me but for them. I wanted to know more about them because in an ideal world, I probably would have done a poll. If I were teaching a group, I would ask them a question before they got there because I want to know who they are. I’d do some research because it’s not fun for me when I’m teaching something and then I find out afterward that the audience already knew it. I wasted both of our time but if I can teach you something new and if I can give you something that you’re looking for, then I feel great.

I’m engaging the audience, having them raise their hand, find out more about them, getting them physically engaged like in exercise, all of these things that I’ve been trying out over the years and studying. Surprisingly, after how much stuff comes up in research, time and time again, all these books and articles I read are coming out more, and documentaries of mindfulness in general. We’ve got that app, Headspace. It has multiple Netflix shows. Meditation and mindfulness are no longer these weird things that some people do.

This is also covered in Stealing Fire. In fact, the other big takeaway I got from Stealing Fire is how meditation ultimately is one, if not the most powerful way to change your state of mind without using anything else. In that book, the author shares all of these different ways that you can heighten your awareness, consciousness, escape and have pleasure. Ultimately, what most of us are seeking is to get better in tune, feel more peace and clarity. All of that can be achieved through meditation. In that book also, it is talked about over and over again how these big CEOs are using tools like meditation. Companies are creating meditation rooms. Companies are now experimenting with different ways to support the well-being of their team members.

This came up in Bored and Brilliant too. The author was talking about Jeff Bezos. I believe it was him but it might have been someone else. I know for sure there’s a part that with Jeff Bezos. He or another big CEO would start their meeting with 30 minutes of silence. I believe it was Jeff Bezos because he would also give all the attendees of the meeting a six-page or so outline of what was going to be covered and everybody would read it in silence. They had a chance to tune into themselves, tune into the meeting, and also review what was going to be discussed so then they could already have a framework for it, be better participants and waste less time in the meeting.

Both books I read on my trip were all about how beneficial these mindfulness practices are. All this to say that I do this talk. I felt pretty good about it. I got offstage. I got feedback that it wasn’t very well-received. I don’t know how many people gave that feedback and I don’t know exactly the context in which it wasn’t well-received so that was tough for me. It sucks when you pour your heart and mind into something, not only did I spend a ton of time writing the presentation and designing it and all that, but the mental space that it took up in my brain for months because I’ve known how long I’ve been talking there. Every time I would think of something, it was a lot of time and energy that I put into this.

MGU 256 | Response To Failure

Response To Failure: There is a downside to self-praise and positive feedback. If you believe everything you do is golden trash, then when you grow up, you think everything you’re going to do is golden trash.


This has been the case for a lot of my work, where you put a lot into something and then it flops or it fails. Some people don’t like it or maybe people do like it but they don’t tell you and only the people that don’t like it are the ones that tell you. This came up as well. I was talking to Michelle Cehn, who wrote this book, The Friendly Vegan Cookbook with Toni, how often the three of us, and the four of us too, Jason talks to them frequently as well. We’ll get negative feedback. Toni has talked about it on this show if you haven’t read it yet.

By the way, Toni and Michelle were in an episode together. Toni has an episode on her own. One of the things that we discussed is how challenging it is to get criticism. Even when it’s constructive criticism, it is still tough. That’s what I got. The feedback I got was meant to be constructive. It was framed in, “The way that you structured your talk, Whitney, does not work for this crowd.” At the time, I felt shocked. I wasn’t quite aware at that moment why I felt shocked and hurt. I felt sad. My ego was bruised. I felt invalidated, embarrassed and ashamed. As I’ve shared, I wanted to do a great job, help people and I wanted it to land. It never feels good when you put on a performance or you create something and despite your best efforts, it wasn’t well-received.

That also leads me to this thought that I have that I can’t confirm or deny. I wonder because there was no way of asking every single person that was there listening to my talk. I don’t know what the percentage was because sometimes the complainers and the criticism are the loudest. Because the praise, if any, did not outweigh the criticism, then the criticism takes the stage. Granted, I did receive praise from a number of people that came up to me and said they liked it so I knew for a fact that it wasn’t everybody. What I wondered was what was the percentage and which was well-received. It was fascinating to me in hindsight. Once I moved past the pain and I cried. I went back to my room and sulked for hours and tried not to beat myself up but I wasn’t fully able to do that. My instinct in those moments is to self-blame.

As I reflected more and more on it, I came back to a sense of self and confidence. I realized that I know I did the best I could. I spent a lot of time on it, and this is not my first time presenting. This is not my first time covering this subject matter. This is something I’ve talked about for a long time. That’s part of why I was shocked by that feedback because I felt that was outside of my realm of possibility because I felt confident. It’s fascinating when your confidence is rocked. It reminded me of dating where you go on a date that doesn’t go well. You’re like, “I don’t know why it didn’t go well.” I imagine, Jason, you’ve been into a girl and you’re doing your best, and you think everything’s great, and then she’s like, “I wasn’t into you.” It’s that moment of, “I did the best that I could.” I was rejected basically. At the core, that’s what it felt like.

One of the big undoings as adults that we have to do is thinking that everything we do is going to be successful and everything that we do is praiseworthy. I’ve been thinking a lot about this. Our response to criticism and failure for doing our best and falling short is compounded and made more difficult by the fact that many of us were cuddled as children. We’re told that we were amazing and everything we do is incredible. It’s a fine line because talking positively to children and positive creative reinforcement is a positive thing. I wonder cognitively about overinflating a child’s sense of how good they are at something.

I remember as a kid writing papers, doing art projects, and bringing them home to my mom. I remember getting a certain amount of like, “This is wonderful. This is great,” but it’s relative. The point I’m trying to make is there’s a downside to self-praise and there’s a downside to that positive feedback. If we believe that everything we do is a golden turd, then when we grow up, we think everything we’re going to do is a golden turd. We then realize that as adults, the world doesn’t care about you. The world is not going to give the praise that your doting parents gave upon you for doing crappy work. I know I’m sounding a little bit hardcore because I’m in a hardcore mood but it’s true.

We get to adulthood and we think because we’ve patterned that everything we do is amazing because we were told as kids that everything we do is amazing but then, we realize, it’s not true. A lot of the things that we do if we have the courage to pursue it are going to suck and we’re going to fall short. We’re going to fail and learn. Maybe we’re going to give up or try again. I don’t know if the praise does more damage than good to children. I probably need to research this. My point is I got too much praise as a kid that my capacity to receive criticism and to assess my own work is a bit flawed as a result of that.

It’s a very relatable thing. It’s an interesting element of this and it’s easy to reflect on now. At the moment, it did not feel good. I’m grateful that I moved through it because this was less than 48 hours ago. Time can go fast and slow at the same time. Reflecting on this, is it a need? This is what I thought when I came off stage. I did two presentations. The first one is the one I’ve been referencing. When I came off stage, I remembered it felt weird because I didn’t get immediate praise. I thought to myself, “Does that mean that I didn’t do a great job? Does that mean that it didn’t land?” Was it my ego wanting that quick fix of validation?

We become addicted to feedback, praise, validation and fearful of rejection. I felt vulnerable. Now in hindsight, perhaps I had a sense that that was the case. Perhaps I knew on a deep energetic level that it wasn’t fully well-received. It was interesting too, I remember that certain people seem to resonate. Certain people had this look on their faces that I couldn’t quite understand. Maybe those are the people who it didn’t land. They were confused or that wasn’t what they expected. That was the other thing. Sometimes people are not happy because we don’t give them or we don’t do what they expected. That can be part of all of this too.

Another big lesson here is we don’t have that much control. If we can keep that in mind during these moments, truly what we can do is be the best and do the best that we know how at that moment. In hindsight, I know that I did that. In a sense, I accomplished it. One of my friends pointed out when I talked to them afterward when I was processing, and you said this to me too, that what a great lesson to receive and experience. What a great opportunity to grow as a speaker. That’s important.

One thing I thought of with you, Jason, that I’m curious about. I’m sure you’ve gone through this, but I’d love to hear you verbalize it. It was the next day as I was getting ready for my second presentation, which my second presentation was well-received. There’s a positive side to the story. The second presentation went over great. In a way, perhaps my perceived failure of the first presentation aided me in doing a better job in the second one. There’s a silver lining for sure.

There are many silver linings to this. It was when I was getting ready for that second presentation. I was feeling a bit defeated. I was feeling like I’m going to go through the emotions. I was less emotionally connected and certainly less excited about doing my second presentation. I felt a little at times like a dog with my tail between my legs. Enough time had passed that I had moved through a lot of that and I was stepping onto the stage with a little less confidence and a little less excitement. My question to you, Jason, is how you can relate to this and how you’ve processed those moments in which you wonder, “Should I be doing this anymore? Do I want to be doing this anymore because this sucks?”

Sometimes people are not happy because you didn't give them something they expected. Click To Tweet

I had gone into that event feeling like, “I want to do more public speaking. Now that things are opening back up, I want to put myself out there. I want to invest more effort into public speaking because I love it.” When that perceived failure happened, I thought, “Do I love this? Am I okay with this possibility?” It’s not the only time it’s flopped. Jason and I had that uncomfortable moment when the man walked out of our event because we asked him to turn off his phone. We’ve had tons of flops. Remember that time also, Jason, where we got pulled off the stage? It was like that cartoon cliche, which is more from the old days of cartoons like a Bugs Bunny cartoon or something where they would take a cane. It was like a hook that would go around your neck and they would pull you. I don’t know if they ever do this or the cartoons made it up.

I don’t know. I think the cartoons made it up.

You remember that vividly when that happened to us.

Their version of the hook was to start the music over us talking.

That was bizarre. Granted, that was a low-stakes event. The event that I spoke out felt more high stakes. I was being paid for it. It was a business conference. I was in front of CEOs and all that. My long-winded question to you is, do you have an experience where you’re like, “I don’t know if I can be a public speaker. I’m awful at this?” Perhaps it’s similar to stand-up. You had experiences where you were excited about doing stand-up comedy. There was at least that one time where it didn’t go well. Do you want to share any of those experiences? How did you feel after they didn’t go that well?

It’s hard because you bring what you perceive is your A-game. You bring your excitement, passion, heart and research. Part of it is our own doing, in my experience, in the sense that if I have even a subconscious expectation that I’m going to slay every single time, it’s not realistic. If you talk to any legendary speaker, legendary stand-up comic, they will tell you about the many times they’ve bombed. Defeating the expectation that we’re going to be well received, celebrated and be on our A-game, even if we perceive that we’re bringing our A-game, we can’t control the outcome.

It’s a bit odd too because sometimes, I will bring the same presentation, the same speech, the same stand-up set, same inflection, damn near similar energy, same delivery, hitting the same high notes, accentuating certain things that I’ve seen work and seen get an emotional reaction in the past. All those variables are the same or at least similar. Of course, there are nuances and then you see it bomb and you’re like, “What the heck happened?” I did the same thing that I did to a roomful of people. The biggest crowd I spoke to was 2,000 people at one time. You’re thinking, “What the hell? I don’t understand.” That’s the confusing part as an aspect of being a life experimentalist. You wonder, what’s the variable here? The audience is the variable.

If my energy is at that same high level, I’ve rehearsed this. I’ve practiced it. It’s dialed, then the variable is we can’t affect everyone. There are people who will listen to our message, listen to our perspective, listen to our story, or whatever it is, our vulnerabilities and they’ll be shrugged. We can’t control it. It’s maddening though because if our hearts are in it. We do want to affect people in a lasting and meaningful way. Give them something that maybe is going to affect their life for the better in some positive and substantial way.

The reality is some people might look at us and we remind them of their cousin Ted or someone they hated in high school, and then they shut down. Maybe it’s the tambour of our voice, or maybe it’s the clothes we’re wearing. They don’t like the way something looks. If you think about human beings, we’re an incredibly judgmental species that make snap judgments about people in a heartbeat. Rather than for me at least trying to control how other people perceive me, I realized there’s a whole variety of factors that I don’t know what is going on in that person’s brain around how they perceive me.

Even if I’m bringing the same energy, the same passion, the same preparation and it bombs, how the hell can I know? You can never know. One of the most challenging things to let go of is realizing that there are some people that aren’t going to care what we have to say for reasons that are out of our control and reasons we may never ever understand. We’re not going to go around to an entire audience going, “Why didn’t you like me? Is there something about me you didn’t like?” Even if we do pass out surveys or do exit surveys, not everyone is going to fill it out.

In that case, results can be skewed. If the squeaky wheels are like, “I didn’t like her.” That’s the only feedback you get. The organizers or the people who put the conference together are going to have a skewed perception of how the audience perceived you if ten squeaky wheels who didn’t like you are the only ones who filled out the survey. From a data perspective, this is a tricky and non-exacting science we’re talking about here. I want to go back to my emotional response because you asked. It’s hard when you put that much work, effort, love and passion, and it bombed. If anyone shrugs it off, “Are you a cyborg? Are you a robot? Do you not care?” It’s tough.

Here’s another aspect too and I hate this. I don’t use the word hate a lot but I truly despise this. It’s when I’ll be backstage or off to the side if there’s no backstage. In a lot of these things, there is no backstage. It’s like a side curtain, “Go behind the side curtain and we’ll introduce you when you’re ready,” or not even. You’re off to the side of the stage waiting for the presentation to begin. You watch people file in. There’s a part of me that’s like, “I hope it’s a packed house. We’re a quarter full. There are only ten people here. There are only fifteen.” You then realize you’re in a big ass room and maybe it’s only 10% or 15% full.

I hate it because there’s a part of me that expects people to love what I’m doing, “Where are you jerks? Don’t you know I’m gold? Don’t you know who the hell I am?” I’m getting in my ego about it, “I’m bringing you gold dust. I’m shooting gold dust up your butt. Where are you?” “We’re out having a lunch break. We’re going out to the tonic bar.” This is my brain. This is my ego talking, and then I’ve got to pump myself up to talk to ten people in a room. That’s happened and it’s difficult because if you’ve done a sold-out room, then why isn’t this one sold out? Why are there only ten people here? Do you know?

It’s pumping myself up to bring the same energy, bring the same passion, bring the same comedy and verve that I would do to a room of 200 people to a room of 20. That’s not easy for me. That’s hard because I get super disappointed when I walk out on stage and I see a mostly empty room. It’s crushing. I’m there to do a job. I’ve got to suck it up and put the ego aside and say, “Can I bring the same love, energy, passion and impact to this tiny handful of people?” That is hard for me. It still is to this day.

It gives me a lot of compassion for speakers but I also noticed myself, I get distracted too when there are speakers. I thought, “I’m going to be kind and I’m going to make eye contact with them,” but then I started seeking out the dopamine. “Let me check my email, in case there’s a new email. Let me see if I can get a hit of dopamine. Let me see if I can get a hit from a text. I’m trying to multitask and I can do it,” which is not true. “I’ll go do this,” or “I’m hungry. I’m going to leave the room. I’m bored. I’m going to go do something else.” It’s all of those things and that’s exactly why I crafted my presentation to engage people so they would hopefully, stay because they were feeling stimulated, because they were present in the moment.

I know my intentions were there and perhaps, it didn’t resonate with that crowd. It’s important for me to hope, at least, that because it doesn’t resonate with them doesn’t mean that it won’t resonate with another. This is why I brought up dating. It is because it’s not you most of the time, it’s the other person. If someone rejects you, do you need to change who you are? That’s one of the big questions of all of this. What do you do when you love something, want something or you’ve chosen something and you’re rejected, not just once but a few times? Do you keep going or do you change?

At this point in my life, it’s important to keep going. This is why it is of the utmost importance to have self-awareness about who you are, what you love, and what your goals are. When you have that and you remind yourself of that, that gives you the resilience to move through this. This is ultimately where I’m at after this experience. It’s less than 48 hours and I am feeling confident again. I started feeling confident again later in the evening. I started feeling confident again a day afterward. I started feeling confident again when I talked to people like you, Jason. Thank you for being there for me and my other friends who I’ll keep their names private.

MGU 256 | Response To Failure

Response To Failure: Instead of trying to control how other people perceive you, you should realize that there’s a whole variety of factors you don’t know about.


It was fascinating to me because the next day before I did my second presentation, another person took the stage and talked about behavioral science and the impact of marketing. I was like, “I don’t think it was a subject matter that bothered people.” I think it was that I did it in a “radical way.” Sometimes that in itself is what people don’t like. This is why we started this show. Jason and I are relatively comfortable getting uncomfortable but a lot of people aren’t.

When you do something out of the norm and not within their expectations, and they feel uncomfortable, it’s common for them to blame it on you, “That person made me uncomfortable. How dare they?” In a way, it’s like, “That person made me uncomfortable. Thank you.” That’s how I feel too after that experience because when we get uncomfortable, we can reflect on it or we can try to run away from this. This is part of the reason why people want to change their consciousness, doing drugs, drinking alcohol, those altered states that are covered in Stealing Fire. Sometimes it’s not to grow as a person. Sometimes we just want to escape.

That’s also the reason that we look at our phones when we’re at a party. You feel uncomfortable and you want to escape. Sometimes instead of escaping, we blame and then maybe we go escape. Maybe we use blame as a form of escape. To be honest, how far away can we get from something? Perhaps if we blame it on somebody, it takes us out of the equation. In fact, at the same conference, there was a man who spoke about complaining and I took a few notes. His name is Will Bowen and he did a wonderful presentation on complaining, which is ironic now. I don’t know if complain is quite the right word, but they gave the feedback that they didn’t like something that I did. Isn’t that a form of complaining?

He broke down complaints into the word GRIPE. Each letter stands for something. The five reasons people tend to complain. One is to get attention. We can do maybe another episode on this, but I’ll share these quickly. Two is to remove responsibility. If you complain about something, you take yourself out of the equation like, “Why didn’t I like what that person said?” Is it not your fault that you didn’t like something but instead you put it on the other person? “I didn’t like it. I was uncomfortable. I was bored. I was whatever else. Let’s put it on someone else.”

Inspire envy and empower is another one. Sometimes when we complain, we feel more powerful because it’s like we can put ourselves above someone. Do you remember Jason this pop culture moment? When Ashlee Simpson, a sister of Jessica Simpson, went on SNL and they caught her lip-synching. She didn’t know what to do and she started dancing awkwardly and then when off the stage they had to end the segment. The media and people, in general, tore this girl apart. I remember vaguely feeling pleasure and making fun of her like joking about it to friends. “Did you see Ashlee Simpson? Can you believe she did that?” I’ve been guilty of acting that way.

I saw a clip in which Ashlee Simpson was talking about how traumatic that experience was for her, especially as a young woman. She was probably in her early twenties or maybe she was still a teenager. I don’t know exactly but she was young. She’s on a major show SNL, screws up, and is not only embarrassed but she is publicly ridiculed and shamed for it. No one would blame her if she had completely ended her career after a moment like that.

Seeing that, I sat and thought to myself, “First of all, relatively, my experience of any embarrassment or shame is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.” It was also that opportunity to see that many successful people have gone through challenging situations of ridicule, embarrassment and mistakes. It’s common knowledge that it takes a lot of resilience and if you have the resilience or find the resilience to move through it, then it doesn’t mean that you should give up on it. It means that you have to move forward. Most incredible people that we admire who have done great things have experienced that. Also, many people that have gone on to do brilliant things had to face a certain amount of ridicule.

I’m not using that as an example in my ego but I do also feel like I have a tendency to back away from things that don’t seem to work even if I enjoy doing them and I often regret it later. There have been many times with online content that I’ve made and it felt like a flop. I was like, “It wasn’t well received. I guess I’ll stop,” and then I wonder later on what would have happened if I hadn’t stopped? What would have happened if I had continued doing something that I enjoyed despite the response? A few times in those experiences, I’ve seen other people become successful from something that I gave up on. There’s a history of the first person to do something that seems crazy or out of the norm. They tend to be ridiculed but the second person does it. They are praised and suddenly they’re the brilliant ones. People don’t even remember ridiculing the first person that did it.

Those stories make me think, “What if I found the courage within myself to keep going with something that I deeply believe in?” Going back to what I started saying earlier, if you have the confidence, self-awareness and the self-trust in what you’re doing, you have to keep going because you don’t know all the variables that can lead to you feeling like a failure when maybe that’s not even the reality. It might be a very small percentage of people. What about all the other people that love what you do? What about all the other people who haven’t even discovered what you do yet but will love it if you keep going. Would you be doing them a huge disservice if you stopped?

It’s hard to say because after a certain point, I’ve noticed my tolerance for failure and disappointment, I hit a precipice where I can’t take it anymore. That’s one reason why I’ve pretty much completely backed out of my culinary career and people want to talk about it all the time. It’s a sensitive subject for me. I’m working in a consulting role on a new project with one of the colleagues I’ve been working with when we digitally met. He sent me a message and said, “By the way, I’m a huge fan of your work. Thanks for everything you did.” You would think that I would feel good receiving that but I didn’t. I felt awful receiving it because I’m not doing that work anymore. It’s like, “Here you are. You’re doing this thing because you failed at that other thing. I’m a huge fan of your work. What the hell are you doing here?” “I’m here because I failed at the old crap. I couldn’t deal with the disappointment and failure. I couldn’t deal with it anymore.”

You should have self-awareness about who you are, what you love, and what your goals are. Click To Tweet

At a certain point, I often wonder and I admire how people can have failure after failure and somehow keep going. I’ve reached a limit and I’ve noticed that there’s a limit to how much failure and disappointment I can endure. With this interesting thing about people commenting that they’re fans of my work and I’ve gotten some interesting messages about that. Seeing other colleagues of ours going on and having a great success like you’re talking about. I hear you, Whit. There are times when I’m like, “Did I give up too soon after fifteen years of doing it. Maybe not. Maybe I’m just over it. Maybe the disappointment and the sadness got to be too much and I couldn’t handle it anymore.”

I do admire people that can seemingly get their butt kicked over and over again by life, and just keep getting up and keep going. I did that for a while and I got sick of getting up. I was like, “I want to lay here for a while in my bloody heap and not get up. Thank you.” I’m tired. I’m exhausted. I’m mentally broken down. I don’t want to get up. With that aspect of my life and my career, I haven’t gotten back up. I don’t know if I ever well.

It is an interesting question about what makes one person more resilient than another? Is it that their heart is more deeply invested? Is it that they have a different why? Is it that maybe they’ve made important this thing that it doesn’t matter how many setbacks or how close they are to defeat? It doesn’t matter if they go into bankruptcy or their relationship shatters. We’ve heard all interesting stories about people who “made it” and what they endured along the way, sickness, bankruptcy, their relationships dissolving and divorces. There’s a litany of things. Maybe it’s that for me, my why wasn’t important, deep and substantive enough.

That’s why I was like, “I’m done getting up. This is my last fight. I feel broken and beaten. I’m done.” Maybe that’s because my why wasn’t compelling enough. Maybe that’s the X-Factor. Why do you think that certain people have this ability to keep getting the crap kicked out of them by life and keep going? Do you think that’s part of it that their why is somehow more soulful, deep and more compelling than others or are there other factors?

Analytically, there are likely other factors. Do you think that’s a huge part of it? This is one of the reasons that I feel compelled to keep going. A few nights ago, I was feeling defeated like I messed up. I was off base. Maybe the reason that it hurt so much is because it went against my instincts and that’s scary. When you’re feeling confident about something and it doesn’t work out for you, that feeling of, “Crap, do I even know myself?” Now that I’ve come away from the shock of that rejection, I don’t believe that’s the case.

I feel further fueled. I feel motivated to go find more evidence for what I did. There’s an element in me that wanted to prove myself. I was a little bit excited that I felt that way after my first presentation because I wanted to prove myself for the second one and it worked. I got the approval that I wanted but it didn’t feel very good. It was tainted. It would have felt much better the day before. If the order did not reverse then it might have been a little bit easier for me and yet, perhaps it worked to my advantage.

My point being is that I found myself thinking, “Are they right or am I right?” Is it possible that we are both right at the same time? That’s more likely. To your point, Jason, just because you do something “right” doesn’t mean that people will agree that it’s right. That is a very important place to land. It’s like when we’re seeking approval and praise, that desire to go prove ourselves when somebody rejects us. Many of us have experienced that like dating-wise. Somebody turns us down or breaks up with us, and people want to get the revenge body or they want to be super successful. If you were bullied in high school, you go to your high school reunion, and you’re the best looking or the most successful out of everybody. The ego is excited about that. It’s a common human experience but I also feel it’s a little bit empty.

I remember I wanted to prove myself to this one teacher in high school. I found out that he likes me but was frustrated with me in school maybe because I had ADHD. We’ll find out the answer to that but I struggled in a lot of ways. This is a teacher that had a lot of tough love teaching styles. If there was love involved, there was a lot of criticism. At that time, I was like, “I want to prove myself to this person. I want to show him how great I am.” The teacher doesn’t care that much. They’re on to the other student in most cases. Maybe in some cases, they care specifically about you and your success.

My point being is most of the time that I’ve experienced the desire to prove myself, it hasn’t mattered like what you were saying, Jason. Something can matter so much to you but then you find out it doesn’t matter to them. It’s a little bit of a waste of our time and energy but that can fuel us. I’m curious when you’re describing what you perceive to be failures, which I certainly do not. From the outside, I don’t think many people perceive you to be a failure and I know that’s hard. Clearly, you get a lot of praise. Oftentimes you get more praise on this show than I do. Many people are here because of you. You are someone that naturally draws people in. You might get some messages as a result of us discussing this but if you don’t feel it yourself, then it doesn’t matter what other people think. This is another example. The opposite can be true. Everyone can love you but if you don’t love yourself and feel that way about yourself, then it does not matter what others think of you.

To go back to this question, some of those experiences of perceived failure, screwing up can be motivating. It was for me, Jason because what happened as I processed it as I started thinking to myself, “I was confident about this. I know myself.” I trust myself enough to recognize that when I’m confident, that means that I’m on the right track for myself. I then started looking back and reflecting on the data. I was listening to the Board and Brilliant book. That book in itself was bringing up examples of exactly what I was talking about and doing on stage in my presentation. I realized through listening to that, it is still a very early time and uncommon for people to encourage us to get off our devices because our devices are relatively new.

The iPhone came out in 2007 and that changed everything. I was there at the Apple store the day the iPhone came out for the first time. It has impacted my life in ways I never would have expected. For those that don’t know, I worked at the Apple Store. I will never forget the day that phone came out. I’ll never forget when I first got the phone. None of us knew at the time how big of a deal that was, not just us at the Apple Store but people in general. You got these phones and they seemed cool but they were different. None of us, including the people who made it knew what it was going to mean for us, that we would walk around almost like zombies. Laptops, all of these are new.

My point is, people who are encouraging not to use these devices or to minimize these devices, that’s still a radical ask because percentage-wise, so many people are addicted to them. Asking someone who’s addicted to stop doing something that makes them feel good is a big ask and it’s confronting. That in itself comes back to my why because I believe deeply from my personal experiences and my research, in encouraging people to work on their focus, presence, awareness, mindfulness, and their connection with one another because I’m deeply invested in people’s well-being. That’s what helps me through these times.

MGU 256 | Response To Failure

Response To Failure: If you have self-trust in what you’re doing, you have to keep going. You don’t know all the variables that can lead to you feeling like a failure.


Passing it back to you, Jason, do you think at this moment that you just weren’t that deeply connected and rooted in being a chef? For anyone who has heard your origin story, which you shared in the second episode that we did at this show. Correct me if I’m summarizing it in the wrong way, but I believe that you want to be a performer at the root. You’ve always loved performing and this is why you thrive on stage, videos, and on the show. You thrive when you use your voice. People are drawn to that naturally.

When you say that you’ve failed as a chef, my thought is like, “Maybe chef is not part of your passion or your why. Your why is more rooted in being a performer.” I don’t think you failed whatsoever in doing that but because being a chef and a performer became intertwined, perhaps you believed that you were a failure at both. Maybe you were never meant to be a chef. You were meant to be a performer. What do you think of that, Jason?

Cheffing was a plan B. It wasn’t a plan A. I only became a chef because I liked making food. Food is a passion. I don’t think I’ll ever stop being passionate about food as an art form and a source of nourishment or a creative outlet. I went to culinary school and became a chef because I didn’t have the confidence at the time in my twenties that I was going to make a living as a performer. I was doing improv. I was singing in bands. I was doing those things and I was like, “I’m not making money at this. How am I going to feed myself as an adult human in the world?”

Literally and figuratively, to feed myself, I decided to go to plan B which was to be a chef. To the point being a chef was never plan A. It was never my original passion. I still don’t have the confidence to be a performer. I don’t believe that I can make a living at it. I don’t believe that I can. I’m in this limbo state of not knowing what I’m doing and why I’m doing it. I feel lost right now, to be honest. I feel probably the most lost I’ve ever been in my entire life. It’s a horrifying feeling. That’s a lot at the end of the episode. Maybe we can use that as a touchstone for something else. I feel incredibly lost right now. It’s not an enjoyable experience to feel this lost.

One thing I do know is that oftentimes when you express these tough emotions, people enjoy it and this is part of your gift too. As I said earlier, it’s been found statistically that when you share your vulnerabilities and your hardships, it connects you to others. You have a masterful ability and innate ability to connect and move people, and this is why they lean into you. I might not comfort you in this time that you’re feeling lost but you’re here on the show. I don’t think this show is a failure. You’re here opening your heart and sharing at this moment.

Part of your experience of feeling lost is not alone because I’m here and the readers are here with you. It’s hard to know that you feel that way but I’m also not concerned because I know that you were stronger than you may even realize. My question is, are you comfortable at this moment continuing this episode and do you want to share any more your feelings or would you prefer to wrap? What would you like to do at this moment?

I don’t have much else to say about it. I’d like to take time for myself just to be in this process.

Thank you for being clear about that. There’s a tendency to apologize like, “I’m sorry. This made you feel this way. I do feel a bit of that.” I felt sad and I got through it. I know you will too, Jason. It’s important to let it out and there’s no shame in it if that’s the right word but I’m glad that you set those boundaries. I’m going to respect that and wrap up the show. I instinctually know from our dedicated readers that they like it when you do this, Jason. They don’t like you to hurt but they like it when you share from your heart and they’re open about it. It’s that fine line between keep being upset, Jason. Make our readers happy. You’re in a safe space with me and I know you’re in a safe space on this show. I’m grateful as your friend and as your cohost that you shared that. I believe that to be one of your gifts. Is there anything else you’d like to say or should I wrap? He’s nodding his head no.

Thank you to the readers. This has been a little bit of a roller coaster of an episode. We thank you for coming along the journey with us. We thank you for holding space to tie into the subject matter. Jason and I show up on this show because it’s for us, first and foremost, but as I’ve expressed throughout this episode, when I do something that I love and other people express that they enjoy it, it means the world. If you would like to express any of that to us, we would love to hear it from you through emails, direct messages on social media, reviews on iTunes, and comments on the blog post if you would like. We’ve shared the website, If you click on the podcast section, you’ll find this episode. If you scroll to the bottom of that page which is a long transcript, there are links to every single resource that we’ve mentioned as well as links to email us, to chat with us on platforms like Instagram where you can DM us. You can also reach out to us individually.

If you keep getting kicked in the butt by life, keep getting up and keep going. Click To Tweet

Jason has his Instagram and his email which are a little harder to find. If you ever want to reach Jason specifically just write, “Hey, Jason,” on Instagram or email. By the way, sometimes people do send messages directly to one of us which is fine. We both read it. Generally, it’s I reading and then passing it on to Jason to read afterward. Just keep that in mind. You can reach out to Jason privately if you would like to respond and myself as well. We are here for you. We are fairly easy to get in touch with. We love hearing from you. We are deeply grateful to you.

Speaking of gratitude, I wanted to give a big shout-out to one of several Patreon supporters. Ry gave us a generous financial contribution on Patreon and it made our day. It’s not just about money. It’s about the energetics of that, but the money is amazing because that supports our latest endeavor, This Hits The Spot, which is a private podcast we created for our newsletter subscribers and our Patreon supporters. There are costs involved and Ry’s contribution is paying for a huge percentage of our costs which is awesome. Thank you, Ry.

Thank you to our other amazing contributors on there. We’ve gotten Nadine, April, Nazneen and Diane. Diane has been a long-term supporter of us on Patreon and it’s remarkable. Every dollar makes us smile. Every dollar helps us with the expenses involved with this show and This Hits The Spot. We created This Hits The Spot to give back to people that are part of our community on Patreon and our newsletter. If you are in a place where you don’t have the funds to contribute, you can still listen to This Hits The Spot, our short private podcast by signing up for our newsletter. That’s also on

You get to download a free eBook, watch a free video, and you also get to hear This Hits The Spot. All of them are there and we’ve linked This Hits The Spot in the show notes. We try to make it as easy as possible. We’re trying to give you even more beyond this show because we truly care and we’re invested in your well-being. Thank you so much for reading. We can’t wait to hear from you. We’ll be back with another episode and sending you lots of love. Until then. Bye!


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